|
Post by mrchips on Jun 10, 2012 17:09:13 GMT -6
Hi, Im working on a 86' en 454 with about 6,000 miles. It has sat for a while. The previous owner had a problem with getting it started. Thats where I step in. Ive gone over this fairly well, new battery, valve adjust, checked timing, cleaned carbs ,oil etc. When cranking ,it will fire, then almost catch, just about every time, but never will run by it self. Its barely even a sputter, it seems to pop back on the #1 cylinder(a puff of smoke from the vacuum hose on #1)and the carb moves back a tad(pressure). The other side doesn't do this, both sides have good vacuum. When the plugs are unhooked it cranks fine, sounds normal. It seems to have good compression( un tested with a gauge). If cranked more than a little bit the #1 cylinder will let out a wicked back fire on the #1 exhaust, not the other side.
Ive tested the ignition coils,wires,pick-up coils -all were well within spec(passed the arc test ok. However the #1 coil will spark once every time when the kill switch is turned on, without hitting the start button)?
On the #2 coil I can not get a ground out of the negative coil wire, with the switch, and key in any position-or cranking. The #1 coil I can get a ground with the key on , and kill switch on or off,... while on its about 500K( Ohm) and off is (1.5- Mega ohms) far too much. On both coils, I can get power, with the key on, and kill switch on or off. Off .12v On 10.4-11.7v - While batt volts at 12.5v. Should the positive coil wires be at batt. Voltage? Ive checked the wires from the coils, both + - are ok ohm wise(checked at the igniter plug). Would this be a problem with the igniter, all things point that way? Or maybe a engine ground some where, that Ive over looked? Ive unhooked the regulator, no change.
Any help would be great.
|
|
|
Post by eaglerider on Jun 10, 2012 17:55:38 GMT -6
are the coils wired right? By that, I mean the wireing to the coils have a right & left side. There is another post that addresses this here on the forum, and gives the right wireing set-up.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 10, 2012 18:51:38 GMT -6
According to the other post, the left #1 coil was wired backwards. I switched it. It still is sputtering, but sounding better. Still has the big backfire. Could the Backwards Coil have fried the Igniter?
|
|
|
Post by Blaine on Jun 10, 2012 18:58:44 GMT -6
That is a good possibility.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 10, 2012 23:06:35 GMT -6
Thats kinda what I figured, all roads point in that direction. Unless I missed a ground... On another matter, is there more than the 1 fuse, at the batt? If so were, in the headlight?
|
|
|
Post by eaglerider on Jun 11, 2012 5:08:20 GMT -6
beside the horn, there is a black, round plastic cover....that is the fuse box.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 11, 2012 9:18:58 GMT -6
Thanks, I would have never guessed that. I thought it was another horn.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 15, 2012 15:42:18 GMT -6
I got a used igniter today, installed it -and I still have the same problem. So I figured I would give the local Kawasaki shop a call. They were very polite in saying"In my 20+ years of working here, I have never heard of that".
So if anybody who has a 454ltd that runs, could you please do something for me..
Turn on your key switch, put your ear close to the #1 coil, while turning on the kill switch, and wait about 3 sec's to hear a click. Maybe try the other side as well. I'm running out of ideas. I still have my ground problem with the #2 coil.
I've tried to test my old igniter (via the instruction, and resistance values) it tested bad.
Has anybody been successful in identifing a bad igniter from these tests?
|
|
|
Post by Jet⚡Black on Jun 15, 2012 19:47:23 GMT -6
Your main post is a little cluttered and hard to follow; but I think I get the gist of what the situation is. I don't know what the owner or yourself has done in trying to get her started. So I'll pretend someone delivered me a bike not running and walk through what I'd do. 1. put the battery on charge. 2. drain the tank(no telling how long, how old, or what the dilly someone may have put in there). 3. clean the carburetors, turning the pilots 2-1/2 turns out to start then fine tune from there once on the bike and running, check the floats height. 4. Adjust the valves. 5. put the battery back in 6. check for spark(if there's spark; gap and install new plugs crank it over and see what happens) 9 out of 10 times they run if it's one out of the 9 that doesn't then I start looking at the electrical. Although if it has spark as well as an electronic ignition and not running I will check the crank position sensor; a magical piece of junk that tells the coils when to spark and you bet it will spark it top dead center or not...that's why I check it; yay for electronic timing...at the end of the game it's the points that decide win and lose So I suppose, knowing what the owner has done(I'd hope) and knowing what you have done and what I would do, adds up to your solution...the list might sound daunting to some but better to make a list like the above and just do it, instead of fiddle, check, fiddle check and get irritated, disheartened and start looking for dogs to kick. The list takes care of two things; One it clears out so many things it could be, might be, unanswered and unknowns before you even try to crank it(yep I don't even try it until I have went through the list)...doing so leaves behind certainties of what it isn't when you finally do crank it. Two it only take a few hours to knock all of that out unless the carburetors need a super soaking... Going in what it's currently doing, I think it's either bad fuel or a dirty carburetor/poorly adjusted, or needing a valve adjustment...in that order.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 15, 2012 20:56:51 GMT -6
Thanks for all that. I've done the following: -New Charged Battery -2 New Spark plugs(have spark, and gapped) -cleaned carbs -I did adjust these, but only 1 1/4 turns out(from a Haynes manual, will reference the manual link to the forum) -New gas -New Oil & Fuel filter -Checked timing -1 carb has a slightly sticking (damper valve) not sure of real term, lightly sticks where the needle meets the jet.(good diaphragms)- the more I think about it this may be the problem -The valves were adjusted, but only at the lower end of the range
I had bought this bike from a man that claimed it just needed a valve cover gasket. As gullible as that may sound, I paid very little for it, with some minor trade of junk. It looked to be altogether. Come to find out, it was missing a few important parts.
Tomorrow I will readjust the valves, carbs,etc.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 16, 2012 16:40:45 GMT -6
Just yanked the carbs off. The floats were adjusted fine(according to the manual from this site- 17mm Level). The #1 carb has quite a bit of carbon in the butterfly valve, and top diaphragm. Through further inspection,after a good look the #1 jet holder is shorter than the other carb.
It looks to have been bent, re-bent, and filed down to fit(not seating anymore).....I don't know how I missed that the first time. I was looking at the carb diagram for this tear down. I've never messed with the diaprgham type carbs before this bike. Mainly just the older styles from the 50's-70's.
They'll be put back on-once I get that jet holder.
For now its off to adjust the valves, and check timing, tdc etc
|
|
|
Post by Jet⚡Black on Jun 16, 2012 22:56:40 GMT -6
Houston, I think we found the problem...wow I am surprised they didn't file a coat hanger and zip tie that in there, sounds on par with what they did. The CV carb isn't that much different; the throttle opens what would be the choke on older carbs, and the air coming in combined with a vacuum raises the needle...thats really the only difference in how it functions. Explaining that gave me a devilish idea; converting a CV into a throttle control slide type.... I think it could be done, I'd try it just for a fun experiment; if I wasn't ankles to armpits in projects etc. Another thing you should be aware of too; when you get the carb sorted and back together...since they rely on vacuum and pressure, make sure when you go to start it; that the filters are on or something used to restrict the carb for some air, CV's have to be really fine tuned to start with no air filter on it...and the 454 was leaned out so bad from the factory, thanks to gooberment regulations, just about every single one of them will not start with the filters off so bear that in mind...
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 18, 2012 11:21:02 GMT -6
Yeah It's quite amazing that someone would file down and ruin the jet holder. Thanks about leaving the filters on. Believe it or not I attempted to lengthen to lengthen the jet holder with silver solder. It soldered fine and after extensive filing, and driliing fit perfect. But once tightened the solder stretched and popped off. If only I had some Oxy/Acetylen Gas for Brasing......... I'll keep you posted of how this goes.
|
|
|
Post by Jet⚡Black on Jun 18, 2012 20:32:48 GMT -6
I am sure you could save a lot of time and trouble by picking one up at a local dealer or bike shop. I known of a few people to use a small camping style propane tank with a blow torch attachment for brazing...you don't need really need a set of big tanks to do it.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 25, 2012 14:37:50 GMT -6
Thats a good point. Benzo-matic a few years back made a oxy/mapp gas torch kit. It was fine, except the oxy omly lasted about 1 min..... Anyway, the new jet holder came today. I installed it back in checked over everything and..........................it still does the same thing.
I started looking around at the air box, and got to thinking. " I bet the soft rubber boots are sucking a little air". So I zip tied those tight, and took out the filters, and plugged up the holes with a rag.
It sounded a little bit better, but not by much. I still have to use the choke to get it to even pop. I adjusted the screw on the bottom every which way, with little difference...The plugs are wet, and there is spark. I did check the timing up top. Is there anyway that the flywheel in the bottom could by off? If so how would 1 check to see?
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 25, 2012 20:49:35 GMT -6
Since that last post a few things have developed. I went back out, and kept playing with the carbs. I removed the filters, and left the box open. It sounded much different, and all most started, on the right side...... So I popped out the #1 plug and cranked it, it still sputtered the same, and I swear it sounds like it is firing in the no#1 as well... I wonder if the head is cracked, or a bad gasket?
I'll have to order a compression tester adapter to see if im on the right track. As anyone can tell reading this , I'm running out of ideas. I haven't spent much $ because of it, just time-so good, so far.
It would be fitting if it was cracked, it's the only water cooled bike i've ever had.
|
|
Rob
New Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by Rob on Jun 25, 2012 20:49:41 GMT -6
Sounds like what I went through! Coils were wired backwards. Swap the black and green wires! The manual is labeled backwards( mine anyway) full charge put on prime and mine fired right up after 2 months of all the checks your doing and a new igniter module. Was a simple wire swap!!
|
|
|
Post by Jet⚡Black on Jun 26, 2012 8:42:02 GMT -6
Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants? I cant recall how I said mine was wired but it's only been a week so it should still be visible...The wiring diagram I posted is for the US model, I think the Canadian and foreign market 454's are wired slightly different...So it's worth another look aye?
|
|
|
Post by Blaine on Jun 26, 2012 9:01:46 GMT -6
Canadian models have yellow on top.
|
|
Rob
New Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by Rob on Jun 27, 2012 7:03:31 GMT -6
Yup yellow/red + (top) Black - right cylinder Green - left cylinder Coils are marked + and - connectors
I actually went and bought another running bike because I got so frustrated and out of ideas, thats why we have 2 now!
Yel/red come direct from kill switch, mine was popping on one cylinder also when flicking switch on! Trying to start 180 deg out of time!
Couls are labeled backward in the genuine kawasaki manual???
|
|
|
Post by Jet⚡Black on Jun 27, 2012 12:28:34 GMT -6
The fly wheel can be off if you have a bent, or sheered off key; it shouldn't turn without moving the motor, if it does then the key has broken off.
Here is a list of all the things I can think of that cause no starting:
Starter motor not rotating:
Starter lockout or neutral switch trouble Starter motor trouble Battery voltage low Relays not contacting or operating Starter button not contacting Wiring open or shorted Ignition switch trouble Engine stop switch trouble Main fuse blown
Starter motor rotating but engine doesn’t turn over:
Starter motor clutch trouble
Engine won’t turn over:
Valve seizure Rocker arm seizure Cylinder, piston seizure Crankshaft seizure Connecting rod small end seizure Connecting rod big end seizure Transmission gear or bearing seizure Camshaft seizure
No fuel flow:
Fuel tap vacuum hose clogged Fuel tank air vent obstructed Fuel tap clogged Fuel line clogged Float valve clogged
Engine flooded:
Fuel level in carburetor float bowl too high Float valve worn or stuck open Starting technique faulty (When flooded, crank the engine with the throttle fully open to allow more air to reach the engine.)
No spark; spark weak:
Battery voltage low Spark plug dirty, broken, or maladjusted Spark plug cap or high tension wiring trouble Spark plug cap not in good contact Spark plug incorrect IC igniter trouble Neutral, starter lockout, or side stand switch trouble Pickup coil trouble Ignition coil trouble Ignition or engine stop switch shorted Wiring shorted or open Main fuse blown
Compression Low:
Spark plug loose Cylinder head not sufficiently tightened down No valve clearance Cylinder, piston worn Piston ring bad (worn, weak broken, or sticking) Piston ring/land clearance excessive Cylinder head gasket damaged Cylinder head warped Valve spring broken or weak Valve not seating properly (valve bent, worn, or carbon accumulation on the seating surface)
I made a list like the above for all major component issues on bikes for myself, as a quick reference check list. This is my engine won't start or has trouble starting section from it.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 27, 2012 16:03:48 GMT -6
Alright, I checked the coil wires again. On mine they have the + sign on the bottom. Maybe someone removed ,or flipped them at some point. It still does the flicking in the #1 side.
After you switched your wires to the right way, did that flicking stop?
Thats good to know about the flywheel. mine is tight with the rest of the engine. I'm leaning towards something in the wiring , or compression. I have a compression tester coming tomorrow.. I can hardly sleep with the anticipation. At least with knowing that, I know where to go from there, roughly.
|
|
Rob
New Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by Rob on Jun 27, 2012 16:55:44 GMT -6
Hmm, never rechecked started second push of the button and ran fine since. Could be normal it is wired direct to battery through the kill switch!
And just to clarify right cylinder and coil when sitting on bike not from front of bike!
Try starting it with a boost from a car battery and with the fuel in the prime position. The extra cranking amps will spin it over faster so you can let the fuel get sucked into the intakes if she has been sitting awhile.
I found even with a new battery it didnt have enough guts to get her running after a long sit! Dont be afraid to hold the starter on for 30-45 seconds. Just touch starter once in awhile to make sure its not getting to warm.
Sounds 100% like mine did until I got the coils wired correct and used a car battery to boost it.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 27, 2012 17:53:13 GMT -6
Thats a good idea. I hooked up my mercedes diesel to it. 1000 amps of cranking power and still the same. I dare say I have a problem somewhere ,....just where. In a way I kinda hope the compression test comes back bad. Then I can know where to look.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 28, 2012 14:06:45 GMT -6
My compression tester finally came. The readings are as follows- No#1 183 Dry 198 wet No#2 180 Dry 210 Wet Both in PSI Compression wise dry it is ok. However on the wet test it did raise. Even with that jump- wouldn't it still be able to start? Also I had a thought. When the battery is charged, and cranking. It will spin it over for about 3 times then I can hear a load metallic sound. Kinda like the starter is disengaging . It does this with the plugs in or out. Is that normal? Any ideas would be great, I'm all out of them.
|
|
|
Post by Blaine on Jun 28, 2012 14:25:47 GMT -6
Your compression readings are good.Your starter issue sounds like the starter clutch slipping.You need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter clutch.It is bolted to the back side of the flywheel.You need a proper 18mm puller to remove the flywheel without damaging it.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 28, 2012 16:21:59 GMT -6
All right, would that play a role in my no starting problem? Or is it just an annoying noise that will get worse?
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 28, 2012 16:26:54 GMT -6
Just to add. It still cranks the engine over though.
|
|
|
Post by Blaine on Jun 28, 2012 18:13:14 GMT -6
All right, would that play a role in my no starting problem? Or is it just an annoying noise that will get worse? It will not cause your "no start" issue as long as the engine turns over.It will get worse,until the starter clutch will no longer engage.
|
|
|
Post by mrchips on Jun 28, 2012 20:30:00 GMT -6
thanks. I took it apart to have a look anyway. The rollers have a slight groove , but nothing else. I'm kinda at the bottom of the barrel on this thing. My last few guesses are maybe the carb diaphragm boots leak a tad. The slides move good, and return well. My igniter is bad. Or the engine is possessed by forest creatures, from where I found it...... I've had a few problem things over the years, but this is #1. I guess after all that the only thing left is to buy a honda.
|
|