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Post by physlift314 on Apr 2, 2019 7:25:31 GMT -6
I was able to get the compression up to spec in my 1986 454. The valve clearances were also set to spec. I have thoroughly cleaned the carburetor jets and ports and have set the float height to spec. When I put the carbs and airbox on and try to start, the engine turns but does not fire.
Out of curiosity, I pulled one spark plug and turned the engine over while placing my finger over the spark plug port. I didn't notice any fuel on my hand (not even really the smell). Did the same for the other cylinder and got the same result. Putting the choke on doesn't seem to help either.
Any ideas what might be going on?
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Post by bikeman on Apr 2, 2019 9:14:20 GMT -6
put a pipe onto one of the carb drain points open the valve. make sure you are getting fuel to the carbs if not apply vacuum to the pet cock to see if fuel is flowing.
you did remember to replace the petcock vacuum pipe on the left side inlet manifold while blanking off the other one. one other point if the carbs and feed pipe are completely empty it can take a quite few turns on the starter to fill the pipe and carb bowls. the engine has to crank to create the vacuum that opens the pet cock that fills the tube. and runs into the carb bowls, "like in the song" the bowls have to be full before any fuel gets into the engine this can take quite a while. best to fill the pipe and bowls with a remote source so there full before trying to start. or even get it running before the tank goes on.
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 2, 2019 13:11:00 GMT -6
Thank you for your response.
The carb bowls do have fuel in them. I am running a makeshift fuel tank (just a gatorade bottle connected with fuel line to the carbs). I don't measure how much gas I put in the carbs initially. I just pour it into the bottle and wait for it to fill the bottle up and stop draining into the carbs. The tank and petcock is completely off and not being used.
I did not think that the float bowls needed to be filled up all the way. Perhaps that is the problem. Would it be true that if the make shift tank has stopped draining into the carbs and has started to fill up that the carb bowls are full?
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Post by bikeman on Apr 2, 2019 13:59:22 GMT -6
yes if the remote fuel tank is higher than the carbs and full of fuel. right well in that case you have eliminated most of the reasons the engine doesn't get fuel. the other is float cut off height. you said you set them to spec [17mm] but was that dry or wet you really need to test the level while full of fuel. put a pipe on each drain open the valve while hold the clear pipe by the side of the float bowl the level should be at the join with the carb body +or- 1mm if it is low there will be insufficient fuel going through the jets as these normally sit in fuel not air.
other things to check is if the plugs actually spark and is the battery good and fully charged. do a drop test on the battery while cranking if the volts drop below 10.5v it will not fire under compression as there will be not enough power to fire the plugs via the CDI it need a least 11v to work correctly.
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Post by knoizy on Apr 2, 2019 14:56:48 GMT -6
Agree with all of the above the battery can be sneaky like that do you have a spare car battery you can hook up? One time I rebuilt the carbs and began adjusting the idle screws with the choke fully open, needless to say that was a confusing hour. Have you removed the coils or anything else that might now be on backwards? How about the various cutout switches?
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 4, 2019 10:23:48 GMT -6
Thank you everyone for the feedback. I had set the float heights dry, but I'll do the check you recommend and report back. The spark plugs are gapped to spec and I have verified that they spark. I put some fuel on the air filters to see if I could bypass the carburetors and I would get pops from the engine. So presumably they are working ok. The battery gets fully charged each attempt, but I did notice that there is stuttering problem when starting ( see here). I installed a new starter and the problem still persists. I'll also try using a car battery to turn it over and see what happens. I have removed the ignition coils several times, but I was unaware there was a "Left" and "Right" one. I assumed from the part numbering that it didn't matter as long as the positive and negative leads were hooked up correctly. Should I try switching the coils? For the cutout switches, I haven't personally removed any but maybe the previous owner did. The kick stand switch is disconnected and the plunger doesn't get pushed down when I try these attempts. Should that be compressed when trying to start it? I should also mention that I don't have the exhaust on right now. Would that be problematic? Thanks everyone for your feedback, this is great!
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Post by bikeman on Apr 4, 2019 13:48:14 GMT -6
hi mate, the way this thread has progressed I would say you have multiple issues with the bike any of which would stop it from springing into life.
I will try and be brief but try to explain. first stuttering [as in vid] this is down to the starter clutch not the starter you can clearly hear it still cranking even when the engine has stopped turning. the starter clutch is the unit behind the fly wheel that ring thing connected to the back of it.
3 rollers work against springs that grip the inner flywheel shaft. when the starter is operated [on a stationary engine] the rollers grab the shaft turning it. this continues until the engine fires and starts. then the flywheel is turning faster than the starter can turn it. as this happens the rollers are forced back against the spring pressure and release their grip allowing the clutch to run free. this prevents the running engine forcing the starter round. now if the clutch is weak it doesn't grip the inner shaft tightly enough so spins when the starter is operated this is the stutter in the vid. you can test it without stripping it all down, by removing the centre cover over the flywheel then using a 14mm socket first turn the flywheel clockwise the engine should turn free without much resistance. then turn it anti clockwise opposite of engine rotation. the starter clutch should engage the engine should be hard to turn and the starter being turned manually should be obvious. you can hear it. if this doesn't happen consistently the starter clutch is slipping and needs to be looked at.
2nd. fuel height it is fine to set these dry, but must be tested wet afterwards. it actually says this in the manual only most don't carry on reading that far. the reason for this is 17mm is just a guide to get you in the right ball park further tweaking will be required. the fuel level should be at the join between the float bowls and the carb body + or - 1mm. this is critical as this is the exact level where the middle of the jets are sat in the fuel not high enough and the jets are sat in air so no fuel goes through . too high and fuel runs into the carb throat before it is needed. ether will cause issues with poor running.
and lastly I'm still not convinced the battery is good. do a drop test. I had the very same issue a while back. engine turns over doesn't fire then now and again backfires down the exhaust. the reason I found was two fold although the battery was showing full charge on the meter and after trying a start it would recover back to 12.5v, when the battery was under load from the starter the cranking voltage dropped to 10.5v it still turned the engine over but would not fire. this is because at less then 11v in the system the CDI stops sending a signal to the coils to fire so no spark. yet with the plugs out they did spark because it took less power to turn the engine so the voltage stayed above 11.v the reason it would back fire now and again was because the bike uses a lost spark system. that is it fires on both compression and exhaust stroke but one [on the exhaust is lost] fuel builds up in the bores with none starting then as the starter reduces the load on the battery the plugs fire one of the plugs will fire on the exhaust stroke that ignites any fuel in the pipe. a new battery $40 and it starts first time.
hope this helps sorry it was longer than I expected but it can be hard sometimes to grasp exactly what the issues could be. and when there is more than one it gets confusing sort of not been able to see the forest because the trees are in the way. you think you have sorted one problem but it still doesn't go so did you do it right or is there something else to try. then it still wont go so you suspect you didn't do it right so go over it again for nothing chasing shadows.
do one job right be confident it's been done right and try other things never going back on old ground or you will be chasing your tail a long time.
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 6, 2019 12:06:28 GMT -6
Bikeman, thank you thank you for the thorough response. This is absolutely wonderful. I greatly appreciate it man. I was banging my head against the wall there for a bit. I'll tackle one thing at a time and report back. Hopefully others will find this useful too.
Again, thank you and standby for an update.
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 7, 2019 9:58:29 GMT -6
Just a quick question. Is the starter clutch assembly part #13193 in this diagram (https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/kawasaki/motorcycle/1986/454-ltd-en450-a2/starter-motor)? Is that what you are referring to, bikeman?
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Post by bikeman on Apr 8, 2019 14:20:44 GMT -6
Just a quick question. Is the starter clutch assembly part #13193 in this diagram (https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/kawasaki/motorcycle/1986/454-ltd-en450-a2/starter-motor)? Is that what you are referring to, bikeman? yes it is exactly that. it's the little rollers and springs that cause the issue. those rollers grab the shaft of the wheel with teeth on as it turns then when the speed of the engine is [once started] revolves quicker than the starter is driving it the rollers retract and it spins free. once the engine stops the little springs force the rollers back onto the shaft ready for the next time the starter is operated but if the rollers don't grip the shaft the clutch slips.
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 9, 2019 8:23:29 GMT -6
Update:
Fuel Height:
I filled the float bowls up like they normally would be filled, removed the temporary tank so that the fuel height was just even with the inlet pipe. Then I drained each bowl into a spare bowl that I had so I could video the level.
Here is the left bowl
Here is the right bowl:
I also did the battery drop test. I charged the battery to full, checked the voltage not in the bike (13V), put it in the bike and turned the ignition key without starting (~12V), then filmed the voltage change while starting it. Below is the video:
I will order and install the new starter clutch, but in the meantime what do others think?
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Post by bikeman on Apr 9, 2019 16:33:15 GMT -6
ok for starters that battery is crap it should not drop that far. mine never drops below 12v. at that voltage the CDI will not trigger the coils. you need a new one. by the way were the plugs in or out. and sorry mate but what the heck are you doing with that float bowl it's not the way you test the levels. that shows nothing only how much fuel was in the bowls not how high the levels are in operational mode. leave the bowls fitted to the carbs fill them [through the normal fuel pipe] using a remote tank until there full check for leaks and over filling leave a few moments. make sure the carbs are level . then fit a small bore clear hose to the tit at the btm of the float bowl. place the hose along side the carbs in a sort of loop keeping the open end higher than the carb tops [you can do this one carb at a time] or both at once if you wish open the drain screw fuel will flow into the tube and show the level the fuel is at inside . keep the remote tank fitted so the float bows fill up again as the fuel enters the clear tube. look at the levels alongside the carb bowl to carb body joint you should have a level in the tube equal to the height of the join +or - 1mm if there right your done close the drain screws empty the tubes and remove. if there not level with the join you have to drain the carbs remove the bowls and tweak the float valves up or down then you have to do the test all over again, as many times as it takes for them to be right. it can be a pain but has to be done properly. like this. www.bing.com/videos/search?q=kehin+float+levels+&&view=detail&mid=D9FC066EF8E57774EB9FD9FC066EF8E57774EB9F&&FORM=VDRVRV
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 10, 2019 19:31:09 GMT -6
Thanks for your continued help. I'll get a new battery this weekend and film the drop test and also perform that carb test. In the videos I posted, the spark plugs were in.
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 15, 2019 9:48:48 GMT -6
I performed the fuel level test as suggested. Below are the videos.
I also filmed the voltage drop test on the new battery but something messed up when uploading it. It was reading 12.8V in the bike and the lowest it got was about 10.7V under load.
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Post by bikeman on Apr 15, 2019 12:43:13 GMT -6
left carb is a bit high. right one looks ok. the test is easier if you push the pipe to the side of the carb make sure the bike is sat level on level ground.
battery should be better than that. which battery are you using. try giving it a top up charge and take off and clean all the connectors battery. starter. solenoid. it really shouldn't drop below 11.5 v
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Post by physlift314 on Apr 16, 2019 18:17:29 GMT -6
Ok. I'll adjust the left float height, clean those battery connectors and starter solenoid and give an update with videos. The battery is made by AutoCraft. It looks like this.
Thank you for your assistance, it's really helpful!
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Post by physlift314 on May 8, 2019 7:34:42 GMT -6
I forgot to do a drop down test. I have a new starter relay that I will install and film the test this weekend. Below is a video of the new fuel level test for the left carb:
I also have a new starter clutch on the way that I will install and provide an update. Any suggestions based off this information here is much appreciated. Thanks again for all the feedback!
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Post by bikeman on May 10, 2019 3:31:52 GMT -6
yeah that's more like it. still not got it running yet.
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Post by physlift314 on May 10, 2019 18:49:01 GMT -6
Here's a more comprehensive update: 1) Starter clutch replaced 2) Fuel levels set correctly 3) Compression running 130 - 140psi in both cylinders
Still not starting but it feels like we're getting closer. Below is a battery drop test:
The pops you hear in the video are because I put some fuel on the air filters to try and help it start (which didn't work). When I did the drop test, I hooked the battery up but did not turn the key on (that's at the beginning of the video). Then I put the key into the on position with the start switched to run but did not press the starter button (~13s into video). Here I noticed that the voltage started to drop to about 12V from 12.7V. Then once I hit the starter button, it dropped to 10.2V (at the lowest). That battery is brand new and was completely charged before starting the test.
I'm not quite familiar with the electrical system so if the drop test is showing something anomalous, I can definitely look into it. Any other suggestions are definitely welcome.
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Post by bikeman on May 11, 2019 15:33:21 GMT -6
hi. it's still too low you need around 11v to fire the CDI. what is the size of the battery you are using. the amp rating that is. there is something wrong here. the battery seems to recover really well after the starter stops but there seems not to be enough cranking amps to turn the engine while maintaining enough spare capacity to hold it's voltage. I don't have a you-tube account so cannot show what a proper drop test shows. mine never drops below 11. 5volts while cranking and then recovers to 12.75v instantly. the battery fitted to the EX is a YB14L-a2 that is 12vols 14 amps. CCA [cranking amps] is around 200. what is yours.
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Post by physlift314 on May 23, 2019 10:45:26 GMT -6
Here is the battery I have.
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Post by eaglerider on May 23, 2019 15:52:26 GMT -6
Could you have a starter that is dragging...pulling more power than it should? I have used a 14 amp battery. Hey, that battery is from San Antonio...where are you???
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Post by Blaine on May 24, 2019 5:44:13 GMT -6
That battery is a little light...Only 12A......Should be a 14A.
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Post by physlift314 on May 26, 2019 19:01:46 GMT -6
Eaglerider: I'm in Colorado.
Oh boy, I feel dumb. I went to the battery spec in the manual and, sure enough, it says 12V 14 amp-hours. I didn't get a chance to work on it this weekend, but I'll replace the battery and do another drop test and report back next weekend.
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Post by physlift314 on May 31, 2019 9:42:27 GMT -6
I've been calling around various auto part stores and motorcycle shops trying to get my hands on a 12V 14A battery, but all of them tell me that the spec battery is 12V 12A (from the catalog they are looking at). I'm not quite sure what to do because the spec in the Haynes manual says 14A but everywhere in town claims it's the 12A that is the one for this bike.
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Post by knoizy on May 31, 2019 11:53:21 GMT -6
Suppliers often have the wrong part listed by bike you just have to be sure to order the correct part irrespective of the bike model. If you are still stuck on this being an issue for non-starting why not just hook up a car battery then you'll know if its part of the problem?
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Post by eaglerider on Jun 1, 2019 5:12:14 GMT -6
Don't jump from the car battery with the vehicle running!!
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Post by physlift314 on Jun 1, 2019 10:12:24 GMT -6
Right on. I have no qualms with jumping from a car battery to test if it's the source of the problem. Will update later this weekend.
Many thanks again for all the help!
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Post by physlift314 on Jun 1, 2019 16:58:42 GMT -6
I tried to jump the bike from a car battery. No start. I didn't get a chance to film a drop test but I noticed that the voltage dropped about 1 volt and never got below 12V.
Any thoughts?
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Post by bikeman on Jun 1, 2019 19:20:46 GMT -6
hi buddy sorry I have not been around for a while, other things going on. you know. the other guys are helping that's good. it also good you have sorted some issues, It may not seem like it but there is real progress.
when there is a problem you have to tackle the issues one by one and as the possible problems are eliminated it reduces the number of possible faults left to check eventually one will sort it. glad you got input on the battery issue. and yes ignore the parts men most don't know their bottom from their elbows a 14amp one is what you need. although having said that using another battery to increase the cranking amps so the volts don't drop below 11volts is just as good.
what you/we now know is that it's not the low voltage stopping it from going. you also know it's not the valves. compression. fuel heights. proving the engine is getting fuel you should be ok on that front.
so what is left. well not a lot. you could try a squirt of easy start. [not sure what they call it in the US] but it's that ether stuff they use to start diesel engines. give it a squirt while cranking. as you did with the extra battery. see if it fires. sometimes all a stubborn engine needs is a kick in the pants. but don't use a lot if it wont go don't keep squirting it in. see if it fires at all even back fires are useful.
also you have never mentioned if the coil wires have been off check that the right wires are connected to the right coils the right way round the guys will tell you the correct order. on the EX the green/black goes to the left coil. [as if sitting on the bike] the red/black one goes to the right coil. check those. the polarity of the coils should be obvious as one terminal is coloured the green/red wires go to these. check this because if they are wrong the bike will be firing on the wrong cylinder.
try those two things and see what happens. let us know.
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