No fuel to engine

[knoizy]

Great advice there and I'm presuming everything to do with your starter is working i.e. new starter clutch visibly cranking the engine? Have you checked for engine flooding? Not got the choke lever open thinking its closed? 

Can't remember all the electrical details myself maybe someone else can help - are there any electrical cut-outs on this bike that allow the bike to crank but prevent starting?

[bikeman]

not sure on that. I don't think so. I know the 2nd gen EX has a resistor in the ignition switch to prevent the bike being hot wired.  and true I'm not familiar with the 454 but due to the age would have thought the electrics were gen 1 type.  


the only way to find an issue is with experimentation and a process of elimination.  I developed a misfire on the gen 1 that got steadily worse to the point it would only run on one cylinder.  so did all the usual testing.  first the plug. then the HT lead and the cap no better, so swapped the coils over to see what happened. same side misfiring.


so I knew it wasn't any of those. could only be the CDI, triggers or wiring.  wiring tested ok. changed the CDI. no different. so came to the conclusion it must be in the triggers.  off with the case and sure enough it was obvious what the issue was. one of the wires that were supposed to tied back under the clip had somehow come loose this was rubbing on the flywheel and had worn away the insulation on the wire allowing it to short out. taped it up tied it back. problem fixed. 


unless I had gone through the full set of tests I would not have found it.  I still think the OP's issue is solvable. and can't help feeling there is something wrong that no one has yet thought of. or been told about that could result in the no start issue continuing.  if you have a spark compression fuel and air and the spark is timed right on the right cylinder it should run. something is wrong with one of them. for sure. 

[physlift314]

Many thanks for the input everyone!

I know this bike works. I had gotten it started up about 2 years ago and even go to ride it. So it has definitely worked in the past, if that is helpful.

I had presumed that any safety switches would keep the bike from even turning, but perhaps I'm wrong. The kick stand switch is not attached to the kickstand bracket, but I close the switch with a C-clamp whenever I try to start it just in case. I'm unaware of any other switches.

How would I go about checking for engine flooding? Also, is there a way to test if fuel is ACTUALLY getting to the engine?  I thought about pulling one of the plugs and putting my hand over the hole while cranking it to see if there was any gas coming through. Maybe I could pull the carbs out and shoot some compressed air over the intake to see if fuel comes out? Just thinking out loud here.

I'm happy to answer any basic questions to clear the air about the condition of the bike (valves set, airbox in, spark plugs working, etc.).

[bikeman]

ok so here is what I think.  on the EX [if the 454 is different please correct this]   you have 3 switches working in a loop and also in tandem. 


1. neutral light.
this works in parallel with all the other safety switches. when the bikes in neutral. it comes on when in gear it goes off. yes it bloody obvious. but it is important. because when it's on. all the other switches are muted. no matter what position they are in.

2. clutch switch.
this tells the system when the clutch lever has been pulled [or not] as it's a two way switch. in the off position [clutch out] it allows the starter to operate but only if the neutral light is on.  if the neutral light is off. this switch prevents the starter from operating. 
when the lever is pulled [clutch in]  this switch [other circuit]  overrides the neutral light system and allows the starter to operate.   why does it do this well it is so if the bike is stalled say at a junction. it allows the rider to restart the engine by pulling the clutch lever. without the need to find neutral. so it will start while the bike is in gear. 
to test this switch. put bike in neutral. operate starter. switch off. put in first gear. [oh and as an aside this is the only gear you can engage while the bike is stood] press starter nothing happens.  then pull the lever. it should now operate normally.  if all this checks out it is working perfectly.  that is all it does. it will not prevent the bike from firing only from operating the starter.   this switch is not the cause of a non firing bike.

3. side stand switch.
all this does is prevent the bike from being ridden with the stand down nothing else. if the stand is down the bike will start. run and do all the other things above. except if you try to drive off with it down the engine cuts out. this switch will also not cause the bike to fail to start. if it did you would not be able to start and run the bike and leave it ticking over while parked on the stand. and we all know it does. 


this should sort out the question . will any of the safety switches  stop the bike from firing if the starter can be operated. emphatically NO.

[bikeman]

I still can't help thinking there is something not yet tested.  buy a can of easystart [the ether stuff] and squirt some down the air intake while cranking [with a little throttle to open the carb butterflies] see if it fires.  if it does it is something to do with the fuel. although you know the float levels are right so the carbs are getting fuel. the jets sit in a bath of fuel in the bowls so if the bowls are full. you should have fuel to the engine.

then check the wires to the coils  green/red is left coil. grey or black/red is right side coil the red wires are the feed ones.  

also unless you have already done so unscrew the cover plugs on the flywheel case and check the timing marks are correct with the corresponding cylinder is at TDC. just in case the wood ruff key has sheared and the flywheel moved resulting in mistiming.


if none of this does any good I'm struggling to think of anything else. 

[physlift314]

Here's an update.

I first checked the timing:

Then, filmed the initial setup of the ignition coils:

I read through the wiring diagram in the manual and put the red/yellow wires on the positive, the green wire on the negative of the left coil, and the black on the negative of the right coil:

I tried to start it up, with the bike hooked up to my car battery:

I got a no start. Then I added 3 sprays of starter fluid to the air filters and...

SHE STARTED!! WOOHOO!! Hahaha, been a long time coming but I am happy she fires now.

But, we are not without issues still. You may notice in the video that the engine seems to rev up slowly as it progresses. Any thoughts why this might happen? The exhaust isn't completely on, the throttle and choke cables not attached, and the valve cover isn't on.

Secondly, I noticed that the left side in the head began to fill up with oil (see video below). Any thoughts on why that might happen?



To everyone that has chimed in on this forum over the years, I am eternally grateful for your assistance. If you were in Colorado, I would buy you a beer hahaha! Now, I guess we start to tune the engine and fix the other issues with the bike (no front brake, new wheels and tires, get shifter linkage set, etc.).

[bikeman]

hi there. really good news it runs at last. there are a couple of points I would mention. perhaps other members who are more familier with the 454 would assist on this.

watching the videos you posted I observed a few potential issues.  one of the oil pipes left side is not bolted down. this could fracture the pipe due to vibration if left un bolted. second you appear not to have the central chain slider between the cams.. www.ebay.com/itm/85-KAWASAKI-EN450-EN-450-454-LTD-OEM-CHAIN-GUIDE-HOLDER-CAMCHAIN-CAM-TENSIONER/131928336767?epid=1423092421&hash=item1eb78aa97f:g:8rkAAOSwDsZazVAQ  it uses the cam bearing caps to hold it down.
if you don't have one you are going to need one. if you have one but forgot to fit it you must put it on before assembling the top cover. and NOTE. you will have to release the cam chain tensioner at the front of the engine before fitting it. failure to do so will result in the cam chain being too tight.


the main issue I think you had was the coil leads were on the wrong coil. this engine has a 180 degree crank so one piston is at the top while the other is at the btm. having the wrong wires on the coils will mean it was firing each cylinder while at the btm of the stroke instead of the top. it's never going to fire like that.

as for the oil pooling this normal providing there are no leaks in the copper pipes at the joins. oil is fed to the cams via these pipes under pressure from the oil pump once it has lubricated the cams ECT. it runs off into the wells where it finds it's way back to the sump by gravity. just make sure ALL the cam lobes are getting a supply of oil while it's running.



 

[knoizy]

Just out of interest how long do you think is safe to run the engine with no cooling system or oil up top? Also things like the exhaust not "completely" on could affect things to an unknown degree, so well done for getting it started my point is that I'd properly refit everything up to the tank before trying to make a judgement on how its running.

[bikeman]

I quite agree things like the exhaust. air box and pair [if fitted] will prevent the engine from working at optimum running . and of course the OP will have to set the mixture screws once it has all been put back together.


however on the cooling and oil front,  obviously it will harm the engine if run too long in that state. but I often do exactly that after setting the valve clearances. I read many moons ago that these engines [454/500]  are prone to oil starvation at the top end due to the blocking of the pipes or failure of the O rings on the pipe fittings.
this overheats the lobes and can lead to catastrophic engine failure.

just to make sure the cams are getting plenty of oil and there are no leaks from the pipes I run the engine for a few mins to check all those points.  cooling isn't a problem as long as the engine never gets hot. it's why the cylinder head has fins as there is no upper cylinder cooling as there is no water jacket in the head. and of course even without the top on oil is being circulated just the same.   

[physlift314]

Great points, everyone. Yes I had completely forgot to put the cooling in, chain guide, and the other things mentioned because I was so surprised it started (been working on this for about 3 years).

I will definitely be sure to get things built back up, up to the tank before attempting to tune the carbs. Will update this weekend. Thanks again for all the help!

[physlift314]

I forgot to mention, in that video I only let the engine run for maybe 30 seconds before cutting it off.

[bikeman]

Jun 14, 2019 8:38:06 GMT -6 physlift314 said:

Great points, everyone. Yes I had completely forgot to put the cooling in, chain guide, and the other things mentioned because I was so surprised it started (been working on this for about 3 years).

I will definitely be sure to get things built back up, up to the tank before attempting to tune the carbs. Will update this weekend. Thanks again for all the help!

when you have been working on a project for a long period [years] it is very easy to forget what you actually did to it first time around. then years later struggle with an issue you never realised was an issue to begin with everyone who has helped during this thread has basically said the same thing. 
if you have air and fuel going in compression. a spark and more importantly a spark at the right time. it will run. it may run crap until properly set up but run non the less 

you may have been surprised it started, but it is no surprise to us. you obviously had an issue with one of the above elements. working through all the elements one by one was always going to provide results in the end.  one again well done. put it all back together properly and there's no reason it should not start first time every time from now on.

[bikeman]

there has been no response from the OP for few weeks now so I will take it the bike is now fixed and running ok.  if any further help is required send us a PM. 

[physlift314]

My fault everyone. It has been crazy for me the past several weeks. Here is an update:

1) Installed the chain guard over the cams

2) Ordered some new oil pipes that go into the head

3) Installed the exhaust pipes and mufflers

4) Started to install cooling system but forgot how it went together because it's been off for so long, hahaha.

I'll get the cooling system back on, the new oil pipes installed, do an oil change, and start it up to see how things are this weekend. A few questions to the forum:

1) What are the connection points for the two hoses on the coolant reservoir? I presume the hose connecting to the bottom of the reservoir connects to the spot near the radiator cap is and the hose that connects to the top of the reservoir just floats outside for overflow.

2) If everything goes smoothly, I believe the mixture screws are supposed to be set to 2 turns out nominally and fine tuned from there?

Thanks again for all the feedback.

[bikeman]

Jul 17, 2019 20:51:20 GMT -6 physlift314 said:

1) What are the connection points for the two hoses on the coolant reservoir? I presume the hose connecting to the bottom of the reservoir connects to the spot near the radiator cap is and the hose that connects to the top of the reservoir just floats outside for overflow.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

that is correct. 

[physlift314]

I got the oil pipes installed and did not notice any leaks when I started it, although the head did still fill up with oil. I'm not sure how much is supposed to be there but it did not continue to fill up after a bit running.

Got the cooling system installed as well. I filled it up with distilled water just for testing and noticed the thermostat housing was leaking a little, so I'll have to replace that. I also noticed that the right exhaust pipe near the head where it connects was "leaking" as I could feel puffs of exhaust on my hand when I put it by the radiator. I'll double check to make sure it's seating correctly, but wanted to know if this was to be expected or not?

[bikeman]

no both pipes should be gas tight from the front to the back. you need the back pressure on these engines to keep the carburation right. 

[physlift314]

Just curious. Do others know what average temperature the exhaust pipes get near the head once the bike is at operating temperature?

[bikeman]

very hot, I've seen mine glowing a dull red when it was running in the dark.  had a weak mixture once then it ran a bright yellow. 

[physlift314]

Ok good to know. I'll be working on it tomorrow and will post an update.

[physlift314]

The cooling parts were being held by the post office so I wasn't able to fix that leak. However, I went to check where the exhaust pipes might be leaking and....

the right exhaust pipe is cracked! Hahaha. I've posted some videos below.

Any thoughts on how to fix this?

I also took a video of the other pipe to get some feedback about cleaning it or things like that. It does not have any cracks in it:

Any feedback is much appreciated. I was also thinking that maybe this thread should end since the bike starts up now. Maybe I could start a new thread about the cracked pipes or something. What do others think?