Where to go from here.

[iride2wheels]

So I did my valve adjustment a few days ago she started up and ran. Next day I started it up and she made a nasty noise and went start again. I tore her apart again today and found the chain in the head had broke, and I lost two of the nuts and two of the valves too. I found both nuts and one valve. I can't find the other one. Took chain off and took a magnet down in it and got pieces of chain but nothing else. Where could it have gone? I didn't take the cover off where the flywheel is and checked that yet. Do I just replace the engine now? Replace chain and hardware for valves? How do I make sure a rod was not thrown? What else should I be looking for? Here's a video of it.. thanks guys. Help a brother out   

[knoizy]

Ouch! That's pretty much the worst case scenario I was hinting at with "check the cylinder head". First thoughts would be the rocker nuts got loose then bounced around until something broke. Thankfully I've never had a bike do that but I'd expect valve damage with a sump full of debris so I think you've definitely got a rebuild on your hands and a new engine. Personally I'd strip both engines and rebuild so at least I knew what condition everything was in.

[eaglerider]

Yes.....OUCH!!!! Appears that the adjustment lock nuts were not tightened correctly, and, depending if you got the engine valve train positioned right, maybe missed the valve adjustment clearances. We have an easier way to adjust valves than what the manual tells you to do, and there are posts in the forum that explains the procedure. Well, saying all that, now, you have a choice...either a complete tear down of the engine, and rebuild ( which can be pretty expensive)...or, find another good replacement engine. If you opt for the replacement, I would suggest finding a good used 1990 - 1995 Vulcan 500 belt drive engine, and swap the required parts from your 454 engine into the 500 (the 500 will not run without switching the 454 parts into the 500). Now a later Vulcan engine is fine, or a Ninja 500 engine is fine, but they are chain drive, which will require switching the rear hub to chain drive and a chain.

[iride2wheels]

Mar 31, 2019 4:36:21 GMT -6 eaglerider said:

Yes.....OUCH!!!! Appears that the adjustment lock nuts were not tightened correctly, and, depending if you got the engine valve train positioned right, maybe missed the valve adjustment clearances. We have an easier way to adjust valves than what the manual tells you to do, and there are posts in the forum that explains the procedure. Well, saying all that, now, you have a choice...either a complete tear down of the engine, and rebuild ( which can be pretty expensive)...or, find another good replacement engine. If you opt for the replacement, I would suggest finding a good used 1990 - 1995 Vulcan 500 belt drive engine, and swap the required parts from your 454 engine into the 500 (the 500 will not run without switching the 454 parts into the 500). Now a later Vulcan engine is fine, or a Ninja 500 engine is fine, but they are chain drive, which will require switching the rear hub to chain drive and a chain.

Yeah I was afraid of that, I'm going to just go with the switch. I was pretty sure I followed every step by step for the valve adjustment and made sure the nuts got tighten back. Obviously not tho huh haha. Now when you say the 500 engine won't work without the 454 parts are you meaning the inside guys? Chain, gears all that? Or will I just need to make sure I use the starter and everything as far as that goes? Is there a thread that covers all of this? Sad I won't be able to ride this year but I'd rather just get the 500 engine And replace the flywheel and everything there too. Thanks guys, o kinda figured it was a goner when I opened that and saw it. But you live and you learn.

[eaglerider]

We have all learned things, sometimes in hard lessons. The 454 stator cover, stator, and flywheel from the 454 must be swapped into the 500... the 500 stator and Flywheel will not let the 500 run in the 454 chassis/wiring setup. Also, if you want to retain the tach, the intake cam and valve cover (with the tach drive)must be used, as the 500 has no provision for a cam. The 454 intake cam has the tach gear drive, the 500 cam does not, that is why the cams must be exchanged to run the tach. Course, if the tach is dumped, there is no need to change the cam and valve cover. Oh yes..you will need to get larger jets, or larger carbs and jets...the 454 stock carbs just do not give the 500 engine enough gas to run smooth. The starter and starter clutch are the same. Now if you came down here to South Texas, and bought my "454 Gold Mine, you would have the whole engine setup, and a couple of other 454 bikes and a bunch of parts! LOL!!

[iride2wheels]

Mar 31, 2019 10:08:36 GMT -6 eaglerider said:

We have all learned things, sometimes in hard lessons. The 454 stator cover, stator, and flywheel from the 454 must be swapped into the 500... the 500 stator and Flywheel will not let the 500 run in the 454 chassis/wiring setup. Also, if you want to retain the tach, the intake cam and valve cover (with the tach drive)must be used, as the 500 has no provision for a cam. The 454 intake cam has the tach gear drive, the 500 cam does not, that is why the cams must be exchanged to run the tach. Course, if the tach is dumped, there is no need to change the cam and valve cover. Oh yes..you will need to get larger jets, or larger carbs and jets...the 454 stock carbs just do not give the 500 engine enough gas to run smooth. The starter and starter clutch are the same. Now if you came down here to South Texas, and bought my "454 Gold Mine, you would have the whole engine setup, and a couple of other 454 bikes and a bunch of parts! LOL!!

hahhahah if I didn't live in eastern Washington that might not sound to bad hahaha. I've been trying to look thru the forum to find the old Post about the engine swap.im going to go with a EN500 and just stay with the belt drive. So the valve cover will fit over the top of the 500? Do I need to to get a 500 bottom to put the 454 flywheel and all in? Should I get a new starter and starter clutch or should mine still be okay? Man I'm excited to get into this. Sounds like I'm going to have a huge shopping list.

[iride2wheels]

Mar 31, 2019 10:27:18 GMT -6 iride2wheels said:

Mar 31, 2019 10:08:36 GMT -6 eaglerider said:

We have all learned things, sometimes in hard lessons. The 454 stator cover, stator, and flywheel from the 454 must be swapped into the 500... the 500 stator and Flywheel will not let the 500 run in the 454 chassis/wiring setup. Also, if you want to retain the tach, the intake cam and valve cover (with the tach drive)must be used, as the 500 has no provision for a cam. The 454 intake cam has the tach gear drive, the 500 cam does not, that is why the cams must be exchanged to run the tach. Course, if the tach is dumped, there is no need to change the cam and valve cover. Oh yes..you will need to get larger jets, or larger carbs and jets...the 454 stock carbs just do not give the 500 engine enough gas to run smooth. The starter and starter clutch are the same. Now if you came down here to South Texas, and bought my "454 Gold Mine, you would have the whole engine setup, and a couple of other 454 bikes and a bunch of parts! LOL!!

and what size carb and jets will I need to get to get this all to work. Thanks again. Huge help

[eaglerider]

Bottom is just fine, nothing to change except the stator cover, stator and flywheel from the 454, replacing those parts into to 500. Jetting is tricky...kind of a trial and error thing. My 500 is a Ninja, converted to belt drive, has competition cams, so carb thing was a bit different, ended up with larger CFM 37 CFM carbs from a 2004 Ninja 500, with(I think)140 jets, the 454 carbs are 34 CFM, 125/130 jets.

[iride2wheels]

Apr 1, 2019 6:02:46 GMT -6 eaglerider said:

Bottom is just fine, nothing to change except the stator cover, stator and flywheel from the 454, replacing those parts into to 500. Jetting is tricky...kind of a trial and error thing. My 500 is a Ninja, converted to belt drive, has competition cams, so carb thing was a bit different, ended up with larger CFM 37 CFM carbs from a 2004 Ninja 500, with(I think)140 jets, the 454 carbs are 34 CFM, 125/130 jets.

Could I get and use the 500 Vulcan carbs and jets and use them

[eaglerider]

Just get bigger jets for your 454 carbs....the carbs are the same. I used the higher CFM carbs, due to the competition cams. The engine would run fine with the stock 454 carbs while under acceleration, but steady "cruising" it was starving for gas, that's why bigger jets were needed. Best way to get things tuned right, is tuned with a dyno, mine may be a bit rich, but ran good.

[bikeman]

hi guys. sorry to hear of the misfortune. but I have seen this before. what has happened is firstly incorrect valve adjustment. throw the book away it useless do it the professional way. turn the engine [by the nut on the centre of the fly wheel] ignoring all the marks look for the exhaust valves on one cylinder until the peaks on the cam are uppermost then adjust the inlets. do the same thing with the inlets and adjust the exhausts. repeat on the other cylinder. the nuts have been under pressure when tightened so have not been tightened enough. then as the engine runs they unscrew drop off get bounced around the valve cover until one goes down the timing chain slot this then jams the chain breaking it. result a wrecked engine. it can be rebuilt but needs a complete strip down to check for other damage and to fit a new timing chain as it is endless and has to be slid over one of the cranks. the best bet is just to change the engine. 

this is where I would differ from the advice given not that it is wrong it's not but there is a slightly better option that is to use the EX engine there are more plentiful and give more power by about 10bhp.  true you cannot use the tacho but electronic ones are not that dear. one of the gen 2 type  94to09 has all the improvement lacking in the earlier engines. you would have to use the triggers or the 454 case and alter the trigger strips on the enclosed magnet flywheel which is simple to do.
the belt dive cog is a direct replacement from the 454 it will fit straight on. and the only other modification needed is in the carbs the 454 carbs will work fine if altered.

you would need the 500 jets 130# mains. 35#pilots and N36N needles. the air filters need to be free flow K&N's the only other mod would probably be to increase the hole in the slide btm's to 3mm. 

be aware though if you went this route the bike would ride differently the EX has sports cams and different timing. at 6k it power bands and takes off like a screaming banshee until it runs out of revs at 120mph.

[iride2wheels]

Apr 1, 2019 20:05:24 GMT -6 bikeman said:

hi guys. sorry to hear of the misfortune. but I have seen this before. what has happened is firstly incorrect valve adjustment. throw the book away it useless do it the professional way. turn the engine [by the nut on the centre of the fly wheel] ignoring all the marks look for the exhaust valves on one cylinder until the peaks on the cam are uppermost then adjust the inlets. do the same thing with the inlets and adjust the exhausts. repeat on the other cylinder. the nuts have been under pressure when tightened so have not been tightened enough. then as the engine runs they unscrew drop off get bounced around the valve cover until one goes down the timing chain slot this then jams the chain breaking it. result a wrecked engine. it can be rebuilt but needs a complete strip down to check for other damage and to fit a new timing chain as it is endless and has to be slid over one of the cranks. the best bet is just to change the engine. 

this is where I would differ from the advice given not that it is wrong it's not but there is a slightly better option that is to use the EX engine there are more plentiful and give more power by about 10bhp.  true you cannot use the tacho but electronic ones are not that dear. one of the gen 2 type  94to09 has all the improvement lacking in the earlier engines. you would have to use the triggers or the 454 case and alter the trigger strips on the enclosed magnet flywheel which is simple to do.
the belt dive cog is a direct replacement from the 454 it will fit straight on. and the only other modification needed is in the carbs the 454 carbs will work fine if altered.

you would need the 500 jets 130# mains. 35#pilots and N36N needles. the air filters need to be free flow K&N's the only other mod would probably be to increase the hole in the slide btm's to 3mm. 

be aware though if you went this route the bike would ride differently the EX has sports cams and different timing. at 6k it power bands and takes off like a screaming banshee until it runs out of revs at 120mph.

How would you hook up a electronic tachs? What is the gen 2 type 94-09 you speak of?? How does one alter the trigger strips on the enclosed magnet flywheel?? What is the belt dive cog? The 500 jets you mentioned would just be replaced in my 454 carbs? What and where is the slide btms? The EX is also a chain drive right? So I would have to swap out the belt and all. I thought I saw somewhere I would need to replace the battery tire?? Is this right? I'm still looking at parts and engines and doing research so wanna get everything I need to consider on what engine and what route I want to take. Probably won't ride this season but that okay.

[bikeman]

hi sorry I didn't realise you wouldn't understand being a novice. this may take a while and a few posts to get through. 

lets start with basics. all engines of the 450/500 twin 4 stroke type will fit your bike. so any engine in the EN.ER.EX.KLE.  450. 454. 500 models.

they are all the same engine the difference  is in the state of tune. capacity. and components that fit to them.

there is little point in going into exactly what needs altering until you have decided  which engine to use. one consideration you may take is the age of these bikes. there all pretty old. some more than others. depending on the age of the unit or bike they came from and the end result you want to achieve. will determine which one you get. 


if you want a engine that will run a long time without issues the newer ones a would be better that is why I suggested the EX 500 it's the newest one produced so will be more plentiful to get probably cheaper and have less miles on it. the newest ones made were in 2009 so in comparison to the 454 last ones about 87 you can see the reasoning. the other model worth considering is the EN500 older than the EX but newer than the 454. 


in order to fit a engine that was not fitted to the bike you will have to alter some things no biggie just parts.   the EN is a belt drive the EX is chain driven. it is not required to change the whole bike to chain drive as the drive cog [the bit that drives the belt] will fit straight onto the EX engine. making it belt drive. you may have to use the 454 drive case as it is wider than the one for a narrower chain. all the other bits simply fit to the engine where there is a difference from what you have. 


but there is no point going into all that just now until you have looked at some engines and got some idea of the replacement costs ect, 

[eaglerider]

My engine came from a 94 Vulcan 500, but the engine is an EX 500. The Vulcan and Ninja bikes were built in the same building, different sides, different assembly lines. Sometime in that time frame, the Vulcan line ran short of engines....in order to not slow down the building of the Vulcan, they "borrowed" some EX engines and converted them to belt drive. I was lucky enough to have gotten one of those Vulcans, so, my engine is the higher tuned Ninja EX 500, with competition cams, rather than the "standard" lower output "de-tuned" Vulcan EN 500. All you have to do to make the 500 "run" in the 454 chassis/wiring, is put the 454 stator, stator cover, and flywheel from the 454 engine, into the 500 engine. There are posts in the forum with instructions on how to "modify" the much better, solid magnet flywheel to work in the 454, By the way, some of the much later model 500's (I forget what years)used even smaller CFM carbs (32CFM) than the 34 CFM 454 carbs.

[bikeman]

Apr 5, 2019 7:09:53 GMT -6 eaglerider said:

My engine came from a 94 Vulcan 500, but the engine is an EX 500. The Vulcan and Ninja bikes were built in the same building, different sides, different assembly lines. Sometime in that time frame, the Vulcan line ran short of engines....in order to not slow down the building of the Vulcan, they "borrowed" some EX engines and converted them to belt drive. I was lucky enough to have gotten one of those Vulcans, so, my engine is the higher tuned Ninja EX 500, with competition cams, rather than the "standard" lower output "de-tuned" Vulcan EN 500. All you have to do to make the 500 "run" in the 454 chassis/wiring, is put the 454 stator, stator cover, and flywheel from the 454 engine, into the 500 engine. There are posts in the forum with instructions on how to "modify" the much better, solid magnet flywheel to work in the 454, By the way, some of the much later model 500's (I forget what years)used even smaller CFM carbs (32CFM) than the 34 CFM 454 carbs.

yes that's basically what I was writing about  any of this engine type will fit any other bike of the same type just a case of which one the OP chooses and that decision will dictate what needs changing.  as a matter of interest how is the tacho driven on your bike.  

[eaglerider]

My EX came with competition cams, with the cam tach drive gear, all I did was exchange the stock 500 valve cover for the 454 valve cover with the tach drive parts on it. The 500 valve cover is taller, so the 454 cover bolts must be used.

[bikeman]

Apr 7, 2019 4:39:27 GMT -6 eaglerider said:

My EX came with competition cams, with the cam tach drive gear, all I did was exchange the stock 500 valve cover for the 454 valve cover with the tach drive parts on it. The 500 valve cover is taller, so the 454 cover bolts must be used.

ok thanks, just curious as I have 2 EX's a 91 gen 1 and a 96 gen 2 neither of those has a tacho cam drive on them. 

[iride2wheels]

Apr 7, 2019 5:13:38 GMT -6 bikeman said:

Apr 7, 2019 4:39:27 GMT -6 eaglerider said:

My EX came with competition cams, with the cam tach drive gear, all I did was exchange the stock 500 valve cover for the 454 valve cover with the tach drive parts on it. The 500 valve cover is taller, so the 454 cover bolts must be used.

ok thanks, just curious as I have 2 EX's a 91 gen 1 and a 96 gen 2 neither of those has a tacho cam drive on them. 

Okay guys just looking over some engines and was wondering what would be needed to swap over to chain? Is it hard? I believe I need to swap back tires right? Found this motor.

[iride2wheels]

Apr 4, 2019 19:58:09 GMT -6 iride2wheels said:

Apr 1, 2019 20:05:24 GMT -6 bikeman said:

hi guys. sorry to hear of the misfortune. but I have seen this before. what has happened is firstly incorrect valve adjustment. throw the book away it useless do it the professional way. turn the engine [by the nut on the centre of the fly wheel] ignoring all the marks look for the exhaust valves on one cylinder until the peaks on the cam are uppermost then adjust the inlets. do the same thing with the inlets and adjust the exhausts. repeat on the other cylinder. the nuts have been under pressure when tightened so have not been tightened enough. then as the engine runs they unscrew drop off get bounced around the valve cover until one goes down the timing chain slot this then jams the chain breaking it. result a wrecked engine. it can be rebuilt but needs a complete strip down to check for other damage and to fit a new timing chain as it is endless and has to be slid over one of the cranks. the best bet is just to change the engine. 

this is where I would differ from the advice given not that it is wrong it's not but there is a slightly better option that is to use the EX engine there are more plentiful and give more power by about 10bhp.  true you cannot use the tacho but electronic ones are not that dear. one of the gen 2 type  94to09 has all the improvement lacking in the earlier engines. you would have to use the triggers or the 454 case and alter the trigger strips on the enclosed magnet flywheel which is simple to do.
the belt dive cog is a direct replacement from the 454 it will fit straight on. and the only other modification needed is in the carbs the 454 carbs will work fine if altered.

you would need the 500 jets 130# mains. 35#pilots and N36N needles. the air filters need to be free flow K&N's the only other mod would probably be to increase the hole in the slide btm's to 3mm. 

be aware though if you went this route the bike would ride differently the EX has sports cams and different timing. at 6k it power bands and takes off like a screaming banshee until it runs out of revs at 120mph.

How would you hook up a electronic tachs? What is the gen 2 type 94-09 you speak of?? How does one alter the trigger strips on the enclosed magnet flywheel?? What is the belt dive cog? The 500 jets you mentioned would just be replaced in my 454 carbs? What and where is the slide btms? The EX is also a chain drive right? So I would have to swap out the belt and all. I thought I saw somewhere I would need to replace the battery tire?? Is this right? I'm still looking at parts and engines and doing research so wanna get everything I need to consider on what engine and what route I want to take. Probably won't ride this season but that okay.

Also guys where is the best place to find the 500 jets 130 main,35 pilots and n36n needles? Found the jets but tried putting in search for other stuff and no luck.

[eaglerider]

If using an EX engine with chain drive, too switch the rear to chain drive, all you have to do is locate a Ninja (I believe 250) thru 500 rear hub/sprocket assembly, it will fit the 454 rear wheel, in place of the belt drive hub/sprocket. Make sure you use the proper spacers, to keep the rear wheel and sprocket in line with the front engine drive sprocket. The jets do not have to be for a 500, they are made to fit many different carbs. most motorcycle shops have different jets in stock. Tell them what carbs you have. Using the 454 carbs, you may need to go to higher than 130 for the main jets, Depending on if the engine you get has the competition cams in it....not all do. The competition cams have a solid shaft, the others have a hollow shaft, like the 454 cams.

[bikeman]

while eaglerider knows far more about the 454 than I do I have been playing with Kawasaki 500's for years. we agree on the basics and that is that Kawasaki are renown for using previously manufactured parts when developing new models unlike say Honda.


this means most parts with a bit of research can be used this makes engine changes quite simple to be honest. depending on the engine you choose will determine which parts need changing.  now some are chain driven and some belt drive to change over from one to the other only requires the gearbox drive or rear wheel carrier to be swapped  the chain cog will go on the belt drive engine and visa versa. why change the whole bike to chain drive when you can just swap drive cogs over. you may have to use the drive cover off the 454 as it is wider but it may just fit as is.  I once converted a 305 [belt drive] to chain this only required a scorpion drive cog and rear wheel sprocket. but regretted it afterwards. the belt drive was smoother quieter and didn't need oiling [which got thrown all over the rear wheel] I only changed it because a new belt was so expensive. 


same thing with the generator if you buy a 500 gen 1 engine [85/93] nothing needs altering it will run on the 454 electrics as it is. but if you buy the gen 2 [94/09] the generator is different it has enclosed magnets and one ignition trigger instead of two triggers and open magnets. here is the same easy swap. either just change the whole generator [flywheel- stator- and case] off the 454 or use the [stator-case] off the 454 but alter the flywheel triggers to the same design as the 454. or gen 1.
gpz-500.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1213

the other thing requiring attention may be the carbs. it may be possible that the 454 set will run happily on the 500 or you may have to change the jets and needles to 500 spec. or again just fit a set of 500 carbs with the 454 airbox. 

the only outstanding issue is the cable tacho it will be redundant. but do you really need a tacho on a cruiser  it's only some thing to look at instead of the road ahead you won't be screwing it at full revs in every gear all day long so is not important like I said before electronic ones are available aftermarket if you really want one. 


it really is that simple to swap engines. all other parts of the 454 will fit the 500 no problem.