Wite oil ?

[thombar]

Thanks for reply and advice;
Bought 1985 bike 1 month ago w/ 20k miles. Kept indoors very clean and original. Second owner complaining of overheating and gas leaking carbs. Could not start for us, bought anyway.
We rebuilt and synced carbs (A/F mixture at 2 turns out, was 5), cleaned tank, petcock and added fuel filter.
Disassembled cooling system, found the metal water tubes in heads rusted (repaired w/ JB Weld), thermostat not opening (left out), water pump filed w/ rusty debris. Inner pump gasket was partially glued so broke when removed. Made new gaskets and reused oil seals. Oil seal and shaft surface very rough. The original inner gasket was glued around the oil seal and I tried to do same
Changed split vacuum hoses on heads.
Changed oil (dirty brown) and filter, my son used both synthetic and standard 10/40 Castrol bike oil.
Changed spark plugs.
Changed air filters.
Changed battery.

All fluids added and no leaks.

Pushed choke and hit starter buttom and it fired right up but the rpm was too high (3000). The idle adj didnt change it so we turned A?F mix screws in 1/4, restarted, no help. The throttle cable was too tight so we adjusted it at the grip end of cable. Then brought idle to 11oo with idle adjuster. Checked oil and topped off water, (noticed a faint oil film on water as I was putting cap back on) still no fluid leaks.
Restarted again, choked only no throttle, fired right up again. Let idle 5-10 minutes to bring up to running temp, gauge came up to just above half but the fan never came on. I figured no thermostat wasnt getting hot enough.
Everything looked and sounded right so son rode about 1 mile, low rpm test drive. When returned had performed perfectly, oil was white.
Drained oil to find milky tan color.
Pulled water hose off pump to find it rusty and less quantity than we put in.
Pulled pump back apart to find small amount of rust debris but no milky paste and gaskets looked intact. May be possible when water pressure built that it got passed gasket and into oil port behind defective seal? I might not have glued right or torqued correctly?
This morn the drained oil is milky tan w/ white swirls come up from bottom. Ominous!

Not mechanic, limited common sense!

Very grateful


Read more: ltd454.proboards.com/thread/5596/wite-oil?page=1#ixzz5x4ifJIY3

[bikeman]

what did the oil look like when you drained it was it normal colour or emulsified white. was there any oil in the coolant you removed. depending on the answer will dictate what to do next. if the oil looked normal and there was no oil in the coolant don't worry. very often the sight glass goes white due to condensation.


if however the oil is white and the coolant oily. it sounds very much like a leaking head gasket. it is unusual to have oil/coolant transfer at the water pump leaks yes via the oil seal and water seal but not mixed in the engine. 

[thombar]

The drained oil is milky tan, looks like mayonaise in the oil level window. When opened water pump most of the water was missing. Appearently transfered to oil. The previous owner said he had overheating issue but his oil I drained was a little dirty but no water in it. How could be head gasket if his oil wasnt white, we've not overheated?

Thanks for the reply. This was a father son project gone majorly side ways!

Tom

[hounddog22642]

I've always been told that the milky appearance in oil is caused by moisture in the oil.
When the motor was running, the oil/water were mixed together, like putting oil and vinegar in a bottle and shaking it up to make salad dressing.

Did you do a fluids replacement before you started it for the first time?
If not, did you drain any off before to check for water or metal shavings?

You didn't mention any history of the bike.
Did it sit outside exposed to summer heat and winter cold, condensation could build up in the motor from improper storage.
I had water (condensation) build up in my Yammy from short trips, 1.5 mile each way to work. I ride year round, if  nothing is falling from the sky when I walk out the door in morning or if the temp isn't so cold neither bike will start.
I would drain and replace oil/filter and run it for a while. Check antifreeze level before starting and keep and eye on it.

If I'm wrong there are some really smart people who might be awake in a couple hours and they will correct me.
This is a great sight but, be patient with other members.

[thombar]

Thanks for reply and advice;

Bought 1985 bike 1 month ago w/ 20k miles. Kept indoors very clean and original. Second owner complaining of overheating and gas leaking carbs. Could not start for us, bought anyway.

 We rebuilt and synced carbs (A/F mixture at 2 turns out, was 5), cleaned tank, petcock and added fuel filter.

 Disassembled cooling system, found the metal water tubes in heads rusted (repaired w/ JB Weld), thermostat not opening (left out), water pump filed w/ rusty debris. Inner pump gasket was partially glued so broke when removed. Made new gaskets and reused oil seals. Oil seal and shaft surface very rough. The original inner gasket was glued around the oil seal and I tried to do same

 Changed split vacuum hoses on heads. 

 Changed oil (dirty brown) and filter, my son used both synthetic and standard 10/40 Castrol bike oil.

 Changed spark plugs.

 Changed air filters.

 Changed battery.

All fluids added and no leaks.

 Pushed choke and hit starter buttom and it fired right up but the rpm was too high (3000). The idle adj didnt change it so we turned A?F mix screws in 1/4, restarted, no help. The throttle cable was too tight so we adjusted it at the grip end of cable. Then brought idle to 11oo with idle adjuster. Checked oil and topped off water, (noticed a faint oil film on water as I was putting cap back on) still no fluid leaks.

 Restarted again, choked only no throttle, fired right up again. Let idle 5-10 minutes to bring up to running temp, gauge came up to just above half but the fan never came on. I figured no thermostat wasnt getting hot enough.

 Everything looked and sounded right so son rode about 1 mile, low rpm test drive. When returned had performed perfectly, oil was white.

 Drained oil to find milky tan color.

 Pulled water hose off pump to find it rusty and less quantity than we put in.

 Pulled pump back apart to find small amount of rust debris but no milky paste and gaskets looked intact.  May be possible when water pressure built that it got passed gasket and into oil port behind defective seal? I might not have glued right or torqued correctly?

This morn the drained oil is milky tan w/ white swirls come up from bottom. Ominous!

Not mechanic, limited common sense!

Very grateful

 

 

[hounddog22642]

Thombar, give this site a day or two more and Blaine or Great White will give you a straight forward-no nonsense answer.
I'm no mechanic by anyones definition. 
But, I'm thinking maybe the head gasket or cracked head, maybe stored outside in the winter or somewhere where the temp got real low and antifreeze/water was a little lean on antifreeze....

Just a few of my thoughts.

[eaglerider]

If you drained the oil, then changed the oil filter and put in new oil (Do Not mix synthetic and regular oil!) and drained the oil again and it was milky, you likely have a blown head gasket or worse, a cracked head. If you have access to a compression gauge, check compression, that will let you know where the problem likely is. Just for info, The Great
White knight now stays in the background, allowing myself and other monitors and members handle things. He no longer has a bike (well, I have a "454 gold mine, that I sure would like to pass on (for a cheap price, I think, or even a trade of some kind), but Sir William (Great White Knight) has kept this forum alive for all 454 owner/riders.

[thombar]

Yes, we drained the used brown oil from previous owner and refilled with new filter. Son didnt know one was synthetic, just all Castrol 10-40 motorcycle. Its probably mixed half and half.

 Would this mixture of oils turn white?

Adjusted idle, brought up to temp, no leaks or noises. Test drove 1 mile gently. Oil window white when returned. Drained to find tan milkshake. Drained water, not all there.

 If compression test determines problem, how to know if its bad head gasket or head cracked, change gasket?

 Thanks for helping, have to finish what started as example to son!

[bikeman]

erm interesting. I have never tried mixing synthetic oil with mineral so no idea what happens you can test this by using a small pop bottle filling 1/4 synthetic and 1/4 mineral replace lid and shake vigorously for several mins. if it turn whitish . there is your answer. 
if not from a engineering point of view there are only two places on the bike where oil and coolant are in close proximity the head gasket and water pump. while it is possible to have transfer of fluids at the pump it not likely. this leaves the head gasket. agree with conclusions already stated. you have two options pull the water pump and renew all the seal parts don't forget to replace the o rings on the chrome transfer pipe. and if that doesn't sort it it's a head job you have to lap the surfaces of both the head and the jugs [cylinders] to make sure their flat. and not warped you should see a crack if there is one it will be stained in a line .

[thombar]

When I the noticed the two different types of oil used my son referenced the issue with Castrol who replied "no harm".

 Sound advise Bikeman!

 Am ordering water pump parts and preparing to change head gasket. When pump is rebuilt we'll replace oil and water to test. How do we remove the pasty mess left in motor before we put in the new? At least I drained white oil and water while it was hot.

Thx again!

[bikeman]

you can clean the engine internals using flushing oil [not sure if you can get this stuff in the US] it's like a thin oil containing detergents. put it in run the engine for 10 mins then drain it out. make sure it is well drained before fitting new oil filter and filling with fresh oil [recommend 10/40w mineral oil] it's the stuff the engine was designed to run on and contains little additives. 

water system can be flushed using something like cider vinegar. fill it up leave to soak for 24 hrs then run the engine a few mins and drain. flush out the system with clean water [hose pipe] leave to drain then fill with proper coolant. water isn't the best medium for cooling systems it causes rust internally if used on a regular basis or the bike is left stood with it in. ok for an emergency get you home fluid but coolant has glycol in it and that's a lubricant as well as anti freeze. 

[Blaine]

Aug 19, 2019 19:00:29 GMT -6 bikeman said:

erm interesting. I have never tried mixing synthetic oil with mineral so no idea what happens you can test this by using a small pop bottle filling 1/4 synthetic and 1/4 mineral replace lid and shake vigorously for several mins. if it turn whitish . there is your answer. 
if not from a engineering point of view there are only two places on the bike where oil and coolant are in close proximity the head gasket and water pump. while it is possible to have transfer of fluids at the pump it not likely. this leaves the head gasket. agree with conclusions already stated. you have two options pull the water pump and renew all the seal parts don't forget to replace the o rings on the chrome transfer pipe. and if that doesn't sort it it's a head job you have to lap the surfaces of both the head and the jugs [cylinders] to make sure their flat. and not warped you should see a crack if there is one it will be stained in a line .

Mixing synthetic & Regular oil has no ill effects...Thats a old wives tale.....Semi-syntactic is a mixture of both oils.

[thombar]

Yes, the KAW repair tech said same thing about flushing engine. Buy cheapest 10-40 regular car engine oil, run for 1 hour, (Im just going to run easy till get hot) and drain over night. Repeat...Repeat...Repeat. add quality bike oil. I asked about the clutch with car 10-40, he said "no problem cause I was going to flush it out"?

 And that vinegar trick is genius! It made me think about the loose rust acting as a stop leak on the head / gasket defect, which made me want to ask you guys if using a stop leak product was an option before flushing cooling system?!

 Water pump parts and head gasket will be here Thurs, plus 4 oil changes w/ filters.

 Think it wise to remove clutch cover, valve cover, oil pan etc and clean with kerosine or carb cleaner? Maybe brush ckutch with motor oil?

 Wonder if those gaskets are glued in, breaking when opened?

 Thx for the replies guys, was pretty shook up when this happened!

[bikeman]

Aug 20, 2019 5:23:38 GMT -6 Blaine said:

Aug 19, 2019 19:00:29 GMT -6 bikeman said:

erm interesting. I have never tried mixing synthetic oil with mineral so no idea what happens you can test this by using a small pop bottle filling 1/4 synthetic and 1/4 mineral replace lid and shake vigorously for several mins. if it turn whitish . there is your answer. 
if not from a engineering point of view there are only two places on the bike where oil and coolant are in close proximity the head gasket and water pump. while it is possible to have transfer of fluids at the pump it not likely. this leaves the head gasket. agree with conclusions already stated. you have two options pull the water pump and renew all the seal parts don't forget to replace the o rings on the chrome transfer pipe. and if that doesn't sort it it's a head job you have to lap the surfaces of both the head and the jugs [cylinders] to make sure their flat. and not warped you should see a crack if there is one it will be stained in a line .

Mixing synthetic & Regular oil has no ill effects...Thats a old wives tale.....Semi-syntactic is a mixture of both oils.

that's good information. I know now what I can do with that 10 gallons of old mineral oil in the back of the garage. make 20 gallons of semi synthetic. 

[Blaine]

Just be sure that it is JASO rated (wet clutch safe) if your gonna put it in your bike.

[thombar]

Thx Blaine !

 Im about to pull that clutch cover to clean out. Is carb or brake cleaner spray ok?

[Blaine]

Aug 21, 2019 16:38:58 GMT -6 thombar said:

Thx Blaine !

 Im about to pull that clutch cover to clean out. Is carb or brake cleaner spray ok?

I would just be careful not to get any on clutch plates.

[thombar]

Loooking Goood!

 Cleaned out the white oil under the clutch cover and oil pan. Replaced the three gaskets and 2 oil seals in the pump. This time I put the sealant on the block side of the inner gasket instead of the oil seal side of the inner gasket. I couldnt find any instruction when I made the first gasket and put the sealant on the wrong side. Brought it up to just past half for 10-15 min. The oil got a little discolored but not white, I think from the old watery oil we couldnt get out. Drained this oil out while hot, refilled w/ new filter. Driving to town tomorrow, if the oil isnt white will be buyin the tag! Be stoppin and chekin every couple miles.

 

[bikeman]

that's good sounds like you have sorted it. it is always good to be careful but you have to be confident in the repair. and not get paranoid over it. 

last time I did a full refurb on one of my bikes. I took it out convinced it would fall to bits. did a 20 miles shakedown run. when it got home I checked every nut and bolt on the bike. all fine. checked for any leaks. all fine. checked all the fluids. all fine. next time out 200 miles. never missed a beat. 


bike are for riding not stopping every 10 miles to check if they will go for the next 10 miles. 

[gandolf]

FYI.

I have had good results with mixing 15-20 percent kerosene with oil as a flush on junkyard engines. Same deal run no load till good and warm and repeat. 

Never tried it on a bike with wet clutch though. I might give it a try on my recent 454 purchase....

[thombar]

Well you guys I must say, I have to agree if only because my 18 yr old son drove this bike for the first time today and returned saying "that was the most fun Ive ever had in my life". Dirt bike since 4yrs old, first on street. Says he got up to 6000 rpms and "felt like it was going to take off". He wanted Ninja but I thought lite cruiser was better choice. When is a cruiser not a cruiser? KAW 454 heck yea!
I thought this was something like a honda rebel so we pick this basket case up for $200. Our first major father / son project because of divorce. He rebuilt the carbs, changed the oil 3 times and reassembled the basket of body parts came from failed bobber attempt by previous owner. We stuck with a plan and finished what we started. Now, instead of buying a bike, he appreciates this more having built it and made something cool from a pile of junk.
Wouldnt have happened without help from you guys here and the other post about "White oil".
Keep em between the ditches,
Tom

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