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Post by ncdiesel on Mar 27, 2020 21:41:09 GMT -6
Long story, but my hard starting 454 got put on the back burner for several other projects over the last several years. Including expanding the farm that my wife and I run and changing day jobs to make all of that possible. But with COVID-19 I’ve had the free time to adjust the valves on the bike. According to everything I’ve read here and elsewhere that is the number one cause of hard starting. The valve stem clearances were all exaggerated, but nothing terrible. So the effort wasn’t wasted. The valves are now properly adjusted.
It made absolutely no change in the hard starting symptoms. Starter just runs and runs and runs with occasional super weak pop from the exhaust and that’s it. A little starting fluid made smoke I could see and occasional smalk tailpipe backfire but still wouldn’t start it. I assume that role starting it would work like it did in the past, but I’m past that point now. I just want this thing to start every time I jump on it.
I’m guessing ignition but I have no way to test it. Igniter? Coils? I have no idea and I was wondering if anyone had some tips. Spark plugs are new and properly gapped. That’s the only work I’ve done on the ignition system.
Thanks in advance,
NCDiesel
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Post by eaglerider on Mar 28, 2020 5:53:32 GMT -6
Compression test??? Are the power wires connected to the coils properly....there is a left and right side, positive and negative wires.
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Post by ncdiesel on Mar 28, 2020 8:39:43 GMT -6
I have yellow/red wire to positive on both sides, black negative wire to the coil by the riders left knee and green negative wire to the coil by the riders right knee.
I did confirm that with the service manual but maybe I have the numbering backwards? I always thought number one was at the riders left knee?
I’ll get the compression test a little later today
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Post by knoizy on Mar 28, 2020 9:25:20 GMT -6
Carbs and air intake ok? Plenty of variables with those two and if the carbs have sat for over a year there could be some serious sludge inside so I'd suggest you spend a day rebuilding and cleaning the carbs (warm the rubbers with a hair drier for removal). Does the starter sound ok - as in starter clutch not slipping? A battery on the way out can make starting difficult even though it appears to turn ok it can be just short of the required cranking amps so if you have a spare to hook up in parallel that's another thing to check out.
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Post by ncdiesel on Mar 28, 2020 10:28:07 GMT -6
As promised, I did the compression test. Compression is ~135 psi cold, both sides. I did not bother adding a teaspoon of oil and taking it again since 135 (and the fact both sides are even) rules out compression for starting I would think???
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Post by ncdiesel on Mar 28, 2020 10:50:36 GMT -6
Thanks Knoizy. Well I can’t rule out any carb issues, I’m still surprised the starting fluid won’t create a pop at all. The battery is brand new. Funny you should mention the starter clutch because during the compression test I didn’t get an increase in reading in normal intervals., which I thought was weird. Normally during a compression test five compression strokes is all you need to get up to your top reading. However I had the starter on for what would seem to be 30 or 40 revolutions. If the starter clutch is slipping that explains why I had to lay on the starter button for an extended period of time it seemed to me. This might also explain why roll starting it always seem to be more effective. It’s been years since I tried to roll start it but I think I may do that this afternoon to see if that particular “fix” still works. Carbs and air intake ok? Plenty of variables with those two and if the carbs have sat for over a year there could be some serious sludge inside so I'd suggest you spend a day rebuilding and cleaning the carbs (warm the rubbers with a hair drier for removal). Does the starter sound ok - as in starter clutch not slipping? A battery on the way out can make starting difficult even though it appears to turn ok it can be just short of the required cranking amps so if you have a spare to hook up in parallel that's another thing to check out.
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Post by ncdiesel on Mar 28, 2020 11:47:52 GMT -6
Just a follow up on Knoisy’s post: good call out on the starter clutch. I removed the main large cap on the alternator cover and could see the engine hardly ever turning over when engaging the starter. It would turn over frequently enough to make you think it was working just fine if you went by sound, but it wasn’t really turning over but very in frequently.
Will try roll starting in a bit.
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Post by knoizy on Mar 28, 2020 16:34:28 GMT -6
My start was also getting increasingly longer and once the starter clutch was removed I could just spot a hairline crack in the rear plate, springs might have been tired as well but a new clutch was needed anyway. Flywheel puller and holder are critical tools here, at a push you can use the bolt puller hack and make a holder to fit flywheel holes or try a strap wrench. Be careful when inserting pullers or bolts into the crankshaft as you definitely don't want to cross-thread the shaft (got the T-shirt!).
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Post by ncdiesel on Mar 30, 2020 13:42:25 GMT -6
Thanks knoizy. I’ll definitely get the puller. Couple of quick questions for you folks:
My research indicates the bolt currently in place holding the rotor/flywheel is left hand thread(turn clockwise to loosen). Is that right? I have an impact wrench and I have found that usually eliminates holding a flywheel or impeller or whatever when removing the nut or bolt holding it. Any warnings against that approach in this particular setting? A quick scan across this board and other places has indicated it is possible to order a replacement clutch that is “right” and installs fine but doesn’t really work. Anyone have known good links or part number for a replacement ? I’ll get a new gasket for the cover but is it usually a good idea to replace other parts, such as the chain while one is elbows deep in this?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by bikeman on Mar 30, 2020 19:36:59 GMT -6
hi bit late to the party not been on the forum for while.
to answer your last few questions.
yes the bolt in the centre of the flywheel is a left hand thread. should undo easy as it's not a tight fit [being left hand the engine rotation stops it from undoing] you will need a puller to get the flywheel off you can use a standard 18mm 1.5 pitch bolt or a 18mm sparkplug chaser. both work ok. you do not need a new starter chain it only turns while the starter is running so never wears out you don't need a new gasket either I have never had one clean the joint and apply a thin bead of RTV will seal it fine. I strongly suggest before you remove any parts. you take the cover off and watch the starter gear working on the button to see how it works and what is causing the issue. if the starter spins the chain and the fly wheel sprocket but not the flywheel the most likely cause is the welds have broke on the sprocket [common fault] if everything turns including the flywheel you could have a busted woodruff #key [it locks the flywheel to the crankshaft] if all these are fine the starter clutch is slipping could be too dry or could have weak springs. all you need to do is stretch the small springs but make sure everything goes back in the right order. and lube well with engine oil in refitment. once the engine is turning on the starter. if it still will not start you will have to delve into the carbs or the ignition system to solve the issues.
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Post by knoizy on Mar 31, 2020 10:57:13 GMT -6
Excellent response from bikeman. Now I remember I nearly used the impact wrench but didn't have the correct socket so that was my original plan, never actually tried it though!
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Post by ncdiesel on Mar 31, 2020 12:25:57 GMT -6
Thanks bikeman and knoizy. I ordered the puller since I did not want to venture out in these covid-19 times to the local fastener place for the bolt. While I was at it, I just for fun looked up the holder. When I saw the holder I immediately thought of a second use in my shop so I bought it since I have that second use.
Thanks for the advice on just examining/watching the whole thing after I take off the cover. I probably would have just dove all the way in. I do know it will turn over because I can hear the pop. It just is doing it infrequently. So it will be interesting to see what it is.
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Post by Blaine on Apr 1, 2020 6:11:43 GMT -6
You can almost bet the starter clutch.....The rollers slip or the housing cracks.
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Post by ncdiesel on Apr 4, 2020 19:20:04 GMT -6
Sorry for the delay in getting back. I am still working so my weeks are still busy plus running errands for a few elderly neighbors and family members.
I just got the alternator cover off today. Sure enough the starter clutch is spinning nicely but the engine is not. Every once in blue moon it seems to grab and turn the motor over but not very often.
The puller came in so hopefully I’ll have some time tomorrow to pull the rotor and starter clutch. I’ll stay in touch.
PS mine is a 1989: version five model. The instructions in the manual seem to indicate that there is an alternator wire connector I can just simply disconnect to completely free the cover but the thing is hardwired all the way up into the wiring harness. So I’m just going to hang it out-of-the-way unless someone here can point me to a nice way to disconnect the alternator wiring.
Thanks in advance!
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Post by ncdiesel on Apr 5, 2020 14:55:32 GMT -6
OK. I got the starter clutch off and I can see nothing wrong with it. Everything looks complete and in place with no visible signs of cracks, breaks, or damage. I have not pulled the starter clutch off the rotor itself. But that looks unnecessary based on what I see. Could it be as simple as springs?
I want to make sure I understand how this works. Under normal circumstances with the engine not running, the springs behind the 3 little round “barrels” are sufficiently strong to force the barrels to create a “camlock” on the large starter gear. However, as soon as the engine starts running, the inertial force of the running rotor keep those three small little barrels off of the starter gear.
In my naïveté, I sort of expected maybe some small indentations on the starter gear that these little barrels could grab onto it but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
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Post by ncdiesel on Apr 5, 2020 15:52:28 GMT -6
Never mind. Found it. Want ahead and pulled the starter clutch from the rotor and sure enough two major cracks in the unit. They definitely are not noticeable from the top. You have to pull it off if you want to make sure there are no cracks.
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Post by knoizy on Apr 5, 2020 18:38:39 GMT -6
You've found the culprit so that's a relief. IIRC the hex bolts are threadlocked and mine took some serious heat to get moving. I guess while you are there check the flywheel magnets are good, the starter motor is easily serviced mine was ok it just got a bit of a clean and some fresh grease on the gears.
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Post by ncdiesel on Apr 8, 2020 9:36:52 GMT -6
The starter has been rebuilt at least once. The tag says Cycletronics of Camphill Alabama as the rebuilder. But they’re out of business now so even though I have a rebuild number on the tag I will not be able to call with the number and find out how old the rebuild is. Additionally, the starter seems perfectly fine. So I’m gonna leave well enough alone there.
Ordered the replacement clutch Monday and should have it by Friday. Hope to be able to give everyone an update by the end of the weekend.
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Post by ncdiesel on Apr 11, 2020 21:59:43 GMT -6
Got the starter clutch and was able to get it installed today. Got everything buttoned up and put back together and now the engine turns over while starting but the motorcycle still will not run :-(. After all of this work, I’m back to where I started.
It was pretty late by the time I got everything buttoned up so I didn’t do anything by way of investigation. But all I get are some occasional really weak “pops” that seemed to emanate from the exhaust like the timing is bad. I guess that’s the first thing I look at it tomorrow.
Can someone confirm my coil wiring? With each pair of wires, I have yellow/red connected the positive. On the coil by the rider’s left knee I have the black wire connected the negative. By the riders right I have a green wire connected to negative. Is that right?
Thanks in advance!
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