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Post by flatblack on Sept 7, 2012 7:23:40 GMT -6
All,
Got my 454 with about 12,300 miles on it. Drove it for 700 miles, changed the oil, and rebuilt the carbs around 13,000.
About 13,500, the bike wouldn't start without a TON of cranking and then stopped starting all together. Did a compression check, had 30 PSI on both cylinders. Did a valve adjustment and it starts right up. 120-130 PSI on both cylinders after that.
Went on two cruises since then, and DD the bike to work for a couple of weeks. After the ~80 mile cruise this weekend, and riding the bike to work on Sunday, the bike didn't want to start cold again. Did another compression test, and it's back down to just under 60 PSI for both cylinders.
What the heck is happening??? I don't have the patience or time to do valve adjustments every couple of weeks. It's not so bad, but I just started grad school and I am really limited with time at present.
When I did the last adjustment, I tore the coolant tube o-ring on the passenger side cylinder. It didn't start leaking until this weekend, but the bike got a bit hot on the ride. Almost to the white line, but never in the red.
Could the heat have caused the valves to tighten up again?
Any help is appreciated, thanks all.
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Post by eaglerider on Sept 7, 2012 9:50:53 GMT -6
 Not questioning your work, but The way u describe things, It is doubtful that the lock nuts on the adjusters were tightened right, unless, when u tightend them, the adjuster screws also turned, causing the adjustment to tighten. If this is the case, don't think u are in the boat by yourself. That is why we say to carefully make the adjustments, turn the engine thru by hand 2 to 4 rounds, then re- check the adjustments before re-assembly. The heat u described is nowhere enough to effect the valve adjustment. Metal does expand under heat, but contracts when cooled down....thats why when valves are getting tight, the cold engine will start fine & run ok..then start running badly, and not start when the engine heats up.
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 7, 2012 18:00:06 GMT -6
Perhaps it's time for new springs and valves, if the springs have worn out and have too much give and the valves have elongated...Of course, without the proper tools or 3 arms the valve adjustment as Eagle says can shift.
When you go to lock it down, Snug the nut a little and turn the screw a little loose on the feeler, so when you clamp the nut down it seats right. Keep rotating and checking with the gauge. The feeler down should be way loose the feeler up shouldn't fit, and the one that does should have slight drag.
There's a nice tool that allows for adjustment with one hand, it has a thumb drive at the top for the screw and a driver built in for the lock nut. The other hand can be free for the feeler to test as you clamp down on it. Image searching tappet wrench, or valve wrench should pull one up in a search engine.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 8, 2012 21:57:36 GMT -6
Perhaps it's time for new springs and valves, if the springs have worn out and have too much give and the valves have elongated... Craaaaap. Does that happen often?? The bike has only 13500 miles right now. Just checked the clearance and only the intake valves had tightened up. The right side intake valve rocker arm has no slack even with the set screws all the way out. Does that mean the valve is messed up? Not sure where to go from here. *edit* all the set bolts were still tight. |
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Post by eaglerider on Sept 8, 2012 22:29:49 GMT -6
 I hate to say this, but from the sound of your description, you possibly have some valve and or head damage. The only way to make sure, is to pull the head for examination. Sounds like when you tightend the locknuts, the adjustment screw also turned, screwing up the adjustment. Its pretty easy for this to happen, if you are not real watchful, even to those that have adjusted valves many times. That's why the adjustment should be re-checked carefully, before re-assembly.
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 8, 2012 22:29:49 GMT -6
Unless for some reason the valve still has tension from the lobe when adjusting; something is out of spec. if you're lucky just the spring. It's hard to say if the valves are still ok, if the PO never adjusted them it's very possible it gained some stretch. I'd be more inclined to think something in the adjusting is a little off; even though you can just point the lobes up and away, I still use the marks.
There's something else that may be of issue now that I am thinking about it, have you ever re adjusted the cam chain tensioner? That's known to cause jumped teeth. If it seems to make a lot of noise in that area it's worth looking into.
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 8, 2012 22:40:13 GMT -6
Eagle has more experience with this motor than myself; so I'd be inclined to follow his judgement on this matter.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 9, 2012 0:02:46 GMT -6
Turned the lobes up and out of the way. Guess I will put it back together and see if it will run until a used head can get here from ebay. Found a thread on here that is exactly what I am experiencing. :/ ltd454.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2502How the heck do all the valves get pulled through like that?? Kind of thinking this can't be cam chain related. Exhaust valves are normal, just like the thread. Dang it. |
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 9, 2012 5:11:12 GMT -6
How the heck do all the valves get pulled through like that?? By the PO kicking back for 12,300 miles pretending it doesn't have valves, because he/she doesn't want to adjust them, or were oblivious to the maintenance schedule for adjustment. Did you happen to ask the PO why it got parked(if it was a non runner) or about any neglected issues that may need clearing up? I know when trying to make a sale people want to, pretend it's been kept up to the letter, so they may dodge the question. Dealing with a non straight up seller, tells me something about them, as in if they can't be honest when asked; they probably also weren't responsible maintenance wise either. |
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Post by flatblack on Sept 9, 2012 12:54:43 GMT -6
I'm confused on how mal-adjusted valves can cause the valves to come through the seats??
Found a couple of heads on ebay. Probably going to pull the head tonight.
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 9, 2012 13:24:45 GMT -6
On most typical motors valves loosen; on this particular model they tighten, so in essence not adjusting them when needed, they will tighten up with so much force, the motor will try to pull them through the seats.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 9, 2012 16:30:48 GMT -6
So, the damage was done before I got it most likely?
I didn't ask why it only had 12,300 miles on it. The guy I bought it from got it in a trade.
He told me he had adjusted the valves, that's all I know about it.
So, it's feasible that the PO never adjusted the valves, and it stopped running because the valves were too tight?
Got the bike running/driving again. I'm hoping I get 100 miles or so out of these valves before the new head comes in.
Bikes Blues and Barbecue is a big bike rally in my town [Fayetteville, AR] and it's happening at the end of the month. I hope I get it in and fixed by then.
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 9, 2012 21:14:17 GMT -6
By 12k miles they should have been adjusted 3 times, off the top of my head, I believe the service interval calls for every 4k. It's possible the trade PO you got it from adjusted them, was there any indication it had been cracked open before when you went in; like wrench scars etc.?
I suppose that's besides the point now though. I'd hate to suggest going for it; and more damage occurs. If one of the valves snapped that thing would be jingle jangling around with the piston smacking it all around the cylinder like a hammer; destroying your piston and jug...so then you'd be out a head and pistons/cylinders/rings.
I would say make a decision based on, your gut knowing what can occur. It sounds like you've got some good mileage on it to have gotten a feel for it, and know how it runs with the issue. If you decide to go, have a solid backup plan in case it goes out on you.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 10, 2012 8:09:17 GMT -6
By 12k miles they should have been adjusted 3 times, off the top of my head, I believe the service interval calls for every 4k. It's possible the trade PO you got it from adjusted them, was there any indication it had been cracked open before when you went in; like wrench scars etc.? He told me he adjusted them; at this point I'd assume if it sat for any extended amount of time, the valves were probably why it stopped running. I would say make a decision based on, your gut knowing what can occur. It sounds like you've got some good mileage on it to have gotten a feel for it, and know how it runs with the issue. If you decide to go, have a solid backup plan in case it goes out on you. Yeah... I have several other alternatives to get to work [my car, my girlfriend's car because we both work at the University, etc]. I bought the bike to drive to school though, so I figure I'll just drive it until the new head comes in. If it goes as normal, it will just stop starting due to low compression. |
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Post by bmwpowere36m3 on Sept 10, 2012 8:35:41 GMT -6
On most typical motors valves loosen; on this particular model they tighten, so in essence not adjusting them when needed, they will tighten up with so much force, the motor will try to pull them through the seats. That's not what is happening. Over X # of cycles of opening and closing the valve seat/face wears and the stem elongates. Both of which cause a reduction in the clearance between the end of the valve (stem) and the rocker arm... i.e. "tightening up". However, the valves are not tightening up against the valve seat. If anything due to the valve stem's elongation there will be less preload of the valve springs, so less pressure on the valve seats. Generally valve clearances shrink with usage causing: - loss of engine compression
- change in intake/exhaust timing
- if left long enough, burnt valves
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Post by eaglerider on Sept 10, 2012 11:54:09 GMT -6
As stated, this engine is a little different....result of not adjusting valves, is shown in the pic in this link: ltd454.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2502If the stem, in fact, elongates, then the valve to valve seat would get wider, not "pull" the valve into the head, as happens on our engines, without proper valve adjustments. Not saying that the stem does not elongate, but valve and valve seat damage is what occurs in our engines. |
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Post by bmwpowere36m3 on Sept 10, 2012 20:42:49 GMT -6
I'm not arguing the fact that valve adjustments are necessary and if left unchecked will/might cause damage. If the stem, in fact, elongates, then the valve to valve seat would get wider, not "pull" the valve into the head, as happens on our engines, without proper valve adjustments. Not saying that the stem does not elongate, but valve and valve seat damage is what occurs in our engines. However, what do you mean the "valve to valve seat would get wider"? The only thing "pulling" the valve into the seat is the spring. |
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Post by eaglerider on Sept 10, 2012 22:13:27 GMT -6
OK, let me see if i can clarify...by distance from valve to valve seat, i mean that when the valve is opened, if the stem is elongated, the valve would open wider, and naturally, if the stem is longer, it will not close completely. The spring will only pull so far, until there is no more "spring" to the spring, if u understand my meaning. When the valve is "pulled" into the head, as the posted pic shows, the distance between the valve stem and the adjuster screw drops to closed and even more, as the valve is "sucked into the head. Sometimes, the valve head even breaks off, causing even more damage, such as knocking a hole in the piston, and even damageing the cylinder walls.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 12, 2012 14:09:59 GMT -6
Yeah - it's counter intuitive that it would sink into the head if the clearance is getting tighter.
I'm assuming the valves sticking open for too long is burning the valves, and the head seat is bashing the valve seats down. [Like shown in that guys picture]
The head was shipped from upstate NY yesterday, doubt I'll get to do it this week :/
Bike is running well, though. Maybe it's being kind to me after giving me so much grief this weekend. Hoping she'll hold together for a few more commutes.
I'll update this thread with pictures once I pull the head.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 18, 2012 22:48:45 GMT -6
Well, the day ends poorly, but I'll update this anyways :facepalm: My professional mechanic friend and fellow bike enthusiast supposes I might be able to reuse the headgasket.... Okay - got the new head in today, looks great. Seats are fine, deck looks nice. Pulled my head, and wow. Was just like I had seen on the other thread , but worse. I'm not sure how much longer before the valves had pulled all the way through.
Everything was going along fine, and after I torqued the head down, I went to put the little BS 8mm head to jug nut back in, and it fell in the crackcase. I was thinking "No. No this cannot have just happened." Couldn't fish it out with the magnet, and so I dropped the oil pan. Nothing in there. Rotated everything around for a few rotations, even in gear, and nothing.
So - stalled out right now. Hoping the head gasket will be re-usable since it was not heat-cycled.
On to the original head carnage pics.
The "best" condition valve is on the left, you can still make out a bit of a seat. The one on the right is the worst of the 4, and the seat is completely gone.
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Post by eaglerider on Sept 19, 2012 7:00:53 GMT -6
I can tell u, that looking at these pics, that the valves were never kept adjusted properly, which is a shame. The valve seat being in that condition is a big reason why ur adjustment lasted so short a time.
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 19, 2012 7:54:23 GMT -6
I'm glad you caught it in time, and things didn't worse. The bubble knobs on the stems show the massive amount of heat that was occurring inside the head.
On another note but similar line, I would suggest to any that does a valve adjustment; to pay attention to the tappets when they are all adjusted, are they uniform? Meaning is one or more running out of adjustment room, or one or more at different heights? The amount of exposed threads above the lock nut should be pretty much exactly the same, it only takes a couple of seconds to put a rule on each one to check the differences.
If one or more is kinda different than the others; then that is a very good indication that what has happened here with Flatblack...could be occurring in your head. If all tappet stems are pretty uniform in height and all adjustment goes pretty much the same, then you're probably safe, this is one way to diagnose the valves without going having to go into the head.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 19, 2012 9:43:24 GMT -6
Got a head on ebay for $55 shipped, looks great and the seats were very nice. So cheap!! Had really good compression, too - was really difficult to turn over by hand when on the comp stroke. Can you guys help me with my stray bolt problem? Do you know where it could have gone? It pretty much had to travel to the pan, right?? here's what I'm working with: www.powersportsplus.com/images/diagrams/kawasaki/C11/C1144/E1111.png It entered the engine here ^^^ where the 'front' |
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Post by eaglerider on Sept 19, 2012 10:52:23 GMT -6
Trying to define where u are meaning....90255A seems to be the cylinder sleeve...you might get one of the magenetic pick-up tools, and "fish around" in the camchain slot...it could be sitting on top of the crankshaft cam chain grear, or in that area.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 19, 2012 12:22:59 GMT -6
Sorry, it's the bolt in the middle of the drawing with a part number 132 in this picture [the first one I posted]: www.powersportsplus.com/images/diagrams/kawasaki/C11/C1144/E1111.pngJust wanted to show where it was in the engine when it dropped. It's the bolt that connects the cylinder head to the cylinder jugs. I rotated the engine around several times with the cams installed, and rocked the bike on the stand and I still couldn't hear anything. |
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Post by Jet⚡Black on Sept 19, 2012 13:28:50 GMT -6
If you know it dropped in the motor and not on the floor the only place it could end up besides in the cam area is down the chain gulley, I assume the motor is still out of the bike, if so get a good grip and rock it back and forth from one end to the other, then slowly rotate the motor and listen for it, as it could be wedged or lodged where the chain doesn't hit it. If it's already on the frame bounce up and down on the shocks really hard several times, then turn it for a listen.
On the safe side, if you didn't see it go in but heard it; count your head bolts, and clean up and organize your whole work area, if it still doesn't turn up in the process, that thing is bad news in the motor, the first thing it will do when you crank is probably snap your cam chain.
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Post by flatblack on Sept 21, 2012 9:12:03 GMT -6
After tipping the bike over on both sides, and fishing around with a bendable magnet probe, I decided the bolt [wherever it is] is not going anywhere. Bought a new oil pan gasket, adjusted the valves, filled up with some Rotella T, and buttoned her up. Started right up. Rode it around the block and found an oil leak. Worried me for a second because it was right near the head gasket, but it turned out to be the rocker arm pivot/oiling tube that wasn't seated properly due to a damaged boss. Made the boss clear the pivot tube, but it still leaks a little bit. I will get a new gasket for that today. Otherwise, it is running well! Mid-range is alright, but top end definitely better. Ready for Bikes Blues and Barbecue now. 8)  |
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Post by eaglerider on Sept 21, 2012 9:25:12 GMT -6
;D Great!!!
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Post by wanchesenative on Sept 21, 2012 10:12:53 GMT -6
happy you got her running
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Post by flatblack on Sept 21, 2012 12:44:20 GMT -6
Yeah I'm really glad to be back on the bike!
Filled her up with fresh no ethanol gas, and it pulls better all through the revs.
If anyone complains about adjusting valves or has a similar problem, you should link them to the pictures of my head haha.
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Not questioning your work, but The way u describe things, It is doubtful that the lock nuts on the adjusters were tightened right, unless, when u tightend them, the adjuster screws also turned, causing the adjustment to tighten. If this is the case, don't think u are in the boat by yourself. That is why we say to carefully make the adjustments, turn the engine thru by hand 2 to 4 rounds, then re- check the adjustments before re-assembly. The heat u described is nowhere enough to effect the valve adjustment. Metal does expand under heat, but contracts when cooled down....thats why when valves are getting tight, the cold engine will start fine & run ok..then start running badly, and not start when the engine heats up.
I hate to say this, but from the sound of your description, you possibly have some valve and or head damage. The only way to make sure, is to pull the head for examination. Sounds like when you tightend the locknuts, the adjustment screw also turned, screwing up the adjustment. Its pretty easy for this to happen, if you are not real watchful, even to those that have adjusted valves many times. That's why the adjustment should be re-checked carefully, before re-assembly.
